craneman Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Steph, thanks for the update. Sadly I haven't yet had the chance to speak with Iain - I must make time! One fairly significant difference between the GWR pair and all (*see footnote below) the subsequent 5-axle non-RB cranes is in the area at the front of the cab. On the GWR cranes, the tail structure is supported on four channel-section 'tail bars', which are rivetted in pairs to the side plates of the crab (the crab being the rotating structure). The rear edges of the side plates are vertical, and there is a substantial backstay which runs from the derricking drumhead to a casting rivetted between the two tail bars on each side. These are clearly visible through the openings which form the entrances to the cab (and, incidentally, make getting in and out of the cab b****y difficult)! The tail bars support the cast steel tailweight, the kentledge, the boiler, the bunker and the tank, something like 20 tons in all (sadly on GWR 2 the inner pair is fairly wasted and may well need renewing, a major job I could well do without). On the subsequent cranes derived from GWR2, althought the arrangement of tailbars is essentially similar, the sideplates were modified so that the backstays became unnecessary. The rear edges of the sideplates sloped, and the overall effect was to alter completely the shape of the cab openings (still difficult to get in and out, though). This is a substantial change which had a significant visual impact, and would need addressing if a model was to be adapted. There were several substantial differences between the GWR and LSWR/SR cabs anyway (for example, the GWR cranes had cab doors, and when built No 2 had a side window). Compare the photo at http://www.eastsomersetrailway.com/gallery.php?gid=61 with similar angles in photos in "Off the Rails" to see what I mean. For info, here is a full list of the R&R 5-axle non-RB cranes built for the mainline railways of Britain (apologies for the lack of columns, tabs don't seem to be possible):- Year - Built For - Orig No - Capacity 1908 - GWR - 2 - 36 1910 - LNWR - MP7 - 36 1911 - GWR - 3 - 36 1913 - GER - 6A - 35 1918 - LSWR - 6 - 36 1919 - GER - SB4 - 35 1927 - SR - 81S - 36 1927 - SR - 80S - 36 1942 - LMSR - RS1071/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1070/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1069/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1068/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1067/30 - 30 Out of the total of 13, only two still exist, GWR 2 at the ESR and SR 81S at the KESR. Out of the 13, the only non-GWR cranes of which the kit could realistically be adapted to form an accurate model would be LNWR MP7, GER 6A, and LSWR 6; in all other cases the changes would probably be too extensive to be feasible and I think that you woudl end up scratchbuilding a crane using a few parts of the kit only, at least if you wanted an accurate model. LNWR MP7 would be an intersting and entirely feasibly project however since it, like the GWR pair, was originally fitted with a Turner boiler with the distinctive rear-projecting smokebox. GER 6A is also an intersting crane. It was withdrawn by BR in 1965 and sold to the English Electric Company, after which is disappeared without trace and its subsequent fate is unknown, but it is believed that it has been scrapped (it is a hard thing to hide). Roger * Footnote - photos of the LNWR crane and the GER crane are scarce and I do not currently have any to hand to check if they had backstays. I am fairly sure that they didn't. I will check when I get the chance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Done some checking from photos and drawings. Based on the list above:- Year - Built For - Orig No - Capacity 1908 - GWR - 2 - 36 1910 - LNWR - MP7 - 36 1911 - GWR - 3 - 36 The three cranes above all had backstays and a vertical edge to the crab sides. All three were built with Turner boilers with the rear-projecting smokebox. The rotating structure of the LNWR crane was, at least on superficial examination of photos, as near as makes no difference identical to the GWR pair, however the carriage was significantly longer (looks to be about four or five feet longer) and all the axle spacings are increased proportionately (presumably LNWR chief civil engineer wouldn't accept as high a concentrated axle load as the GWR's CCE). 1913 - GER - 6A - 35 1919 - GER - SB4 - 35 These two cranes both had the revised crab sides and no backstays as described in my previous post. Furthermore both had significantly shorter jibs than the preceding three and the jib-head derricking sheaves were attached directly to the jib-head, so the top bridle gear is totally difference to the GWR cranes. They were built with Hopwood boilers which were contained entirely within the cab structure. I do not believe that it would be practicable to adapt the GWR kit to pass for either of these with any degree of accuracy. 1918 - LSWR - 6 - 36 This crane had the revised style of crab with no backstays but otherwise bears a reasonable resemblence to GWR 2/3. It never had a projecting boiler beign fitted from new with a modified Hopwood squat type. It should be possible with skill to adapt the GWR kit to a passable representation of this crane that will satisfy all but the most critical of nit-pickers. 1927 - SR - 81S - 36 1927 - SR - 80S - 36 These two were in essence enlarged versions of LSWR 6 and although superficially similar the changes are such as to make a credible adaptation unfeasible (the carriage section is deeper and the carriage longer, the crab is longer, the cab is different). 1942 - LMSR - RS1071/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1070/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1069/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1068/30 - 30 1942 - LMSR - RS1067/30 - 30 These 5 bear a superficial resemblence to the GER pair and are very different the GWR pair. Again I do not think it would be feasible to adapt the kit to represent one of these. Hope this may be of interest! R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Dale Posted November 5, 2010 Author Share Posted November 5, 2010 Roger, Thanks for your comments about the comparison between GWR2 and LSWR6. I have a set of outline drawings of LSWR6 here; they were provided in Vol4 of G R Weddell's 'LSWR Carriages', so as/when I get the kit from Iain I might be able to make a reasonable fist of the conversion. I've certainly got enough photos now! I need to start getting more of a 'feel' for the two Mess/Tool vans: I'm aware that both will need scratchbuilding as they're ex-LBSCR, but one was re-framed and I haven't found a view clear enough to be certain whether the vehicle was fitted with SR bogies or happened to retain the LBSCR/Fox/plate style. It certainly ended up slightly taller... Steph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I spoke to Iain at lunchtime today about the crane. He's currently looking at a release early next year: his final British outline kit. Steph Steph, At the Reading Trade Show Ian was suggesting that the Crane would be released at Kettering... and that he would let people know by e-mail. I have my name down for the full set - I have not heard anything and that seems odd given that Kettering is now just one week away. I have tried to telephone and have not managed to speak to Ian as yet. What is your, or anyone else's, take on the kit being at Kettering? regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Dale Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Graham, I was wondering that myself this morning - I haven't heard anything from him either. He's not listed as a trader for Kettering on the Gauge 0 Guild website, so maybe he didn't get in. I wasn't sure either whether Kettering was the due delivery date or the drop-dead date for orders so wasn't necessarily expecting to take delivery then anyway. I last spoke to him just before Christmas and was aware that he hadn't started his test build then. So I'm in much the same situation as yourself. I'll catch up with him if I see him at Kettering and if I don't then I guess we're on to the ALSRM gig at Reading a little later in the year... It's probably wrth dropping him an email, even if only to remind him of your 'interest'. Steph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Any further news about the availability of this kit? It all seems to have gone very quiet. I have still been unable to make any form of contact with Iain Young, but would love to know what is happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 If you bought one of the Sanspareil kits for the R&R 36T crane (which was available at Telford this year)... have you got any instruction with the kit? Thank you, Graham Beare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 A Sanspareil kit for the R&R 36T crane was obtained at Telford this year... and even though Ian Young has provided several isometric views of the rotating portion of the crane I am at a loss as to how a crane driver "drove" the crane. Anyone able to explain what the driver did to make the crane jib rise/fall? or slew? I am assuming that the two steam cylinders, one on each side of the crane, were connected to opposite ends of the same cross-shaft - is this a reasonable assumption? regards, Graham Beare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Graham, You are correct, the two engines (i.e, cylinders) are connected to opposite ends of the crankshaft in a similar way to a two-cylinder locomotive. The crankshaft carries the two crank disks with crankpins, the eccentrics for the valve gear (of the Howe type on No 2), and also has gearing for the hoist or burden drum (two speeds are provided), the slewing clutches, and then further gearing for the travel and derricking gear. The selection of gears is under the driver's control and is worked by levers in a frame broadly similar to the frame found in a traditional signal box. The driving controls therefore consist of the following levers (in no particular order): 1) regulator - operates a steam valve between the boiler and the steam chests 2) reverser - same function as a loco, forward or reverse, but has fewer 'notches', usually mid gear, full forward/reverse, and half forward/reverse. 3) burden gears - three positions thus; disengaged, fast (light lifts), slow (heavy lifts). 4) derricking/travel gears - three positions thus; disengaged, derrick, travel. 5) slewing clutches - an 'un-notched' lever (ie it must be held either forward or backward) with three positions thus; centre (neither clutch), forward, reverse (engages one or other slewing clutch) In addition to the above there are foot operated (locking) brake levers for the burden drum and slewing motions, and a handwheel-operated brake for the derricking drum. In addition to all of these, there are of course the usual controls for boiler management (injector, feed pump, blower, damper etc), plus controls for supplementary devices such as whistle, turbogenerator, lighting, water lifter, lubricator, and that sort of thing. One oddity which the crane driver has to bear in mind is that the function of the slewing clutches will be reversed according to whether the engine is running forwards or backwards. This can easily catch the novice drive out! So, a typical control sequence on arrival at a worksite would be as follows, assuming that the crane arrives with a full head of steam, the jib resting on the jib runner, and is to work F.O.R. (free on rails, ie not propped and clipped) and is to make self-powered travelling movements in the work site:- 1) crane arrives, crane handbrake is applied, crane is uncoupled from the train formationin which it arrived. 2) spring lockout blocks are put in position 3) Jib is raised from jib runner thus. Derricking gears selected using appropriate lever, forward gear selected using appropriate lever, derricking drum brake released, regulator opened, jib rises (very slowly and using a prodigous amount of steam - it is very low geared)! Once appropriate radius is reached, the regulator is shut, the derricking brake is applied, the reverser is returned to mid-gear, and the derricking gears are deselected. If the crane is now required to slew, the procedure is as follows:- 1) Forward (or reverse) selected with reversed 2) Regulator 'cracked' so that engines start running at a low speed 3) simultaneously the slewing brake is released and the appropriate slewing clutch is engaged. Which clutch will depend on whether the engine is running forwards or backwards, and whether a slew left or right is required. 4) upon completion of slew, the slewing brake will be applied and locked and the slewing clutch released simultaneously. Raising or lowering the hook is essentially the same procedure as raising or lowering the jib and requires no elaboration. Before the crane can travel, the two travelling gear clutches on the centre axles must be engaged (from the ground, using the (red) handwheels on the carriage) and the handbrake release (again from the ground using the (white) handwheels on either side of the carriage). Note that there are no travelling brakes available to the driver; he is wholly dependent upon a groundsman for the handbrake or on the engines to provide braking. It is also possible, due to the layout of the geartrains and clutches, to combine various motions, so it is possible to move the hook at the same time as either derricking or travelling and whilst slewing. It is possible to slew in either direction with the engine running in either direction, but all the other motions are dependent upon direction of rotation on the crankshaft. So it is possible to slew left or right whilst raising or lowering the hook, but only to derrick up whilst raising the hook, or down whilst lowering the hook. (In fact, early R&R cranes tended to be geared so that these two motions were similar, ie jib up and hook up, or jib down and hook down; later cranes had them opposed, ie jib up hook down and jib down hook up, since this keeps the hook at a roughly-constant height when derricking which saves time and steam. I do not at the moment know what happens on No 2 since it hasn't been in use for a long while - it is more likely to follow the early trend since it was the very first crane of its type). In some ways operating a crane of this type is probably like flying a helicopter in that the pilot is required to do many simultaneous unintuitive things at once! Hope this helps! By the way, the notes above specifically relate to GWR No 2; there were differences on later cranes which no makes No 2 unique in preservation. One of the most significant is that the method of operating the slewing clutched was changed from a lever to a handwheel by, probably, c. 1915, and all other preserved R&R cranes have the later arrangement. The method of slewing is different to that descrived above on handwheel-equipped cranes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 By the way, the notes above specifically relate to GWR No 2; there were differences on later cranes which no makes No 2 unique in preservation. One of the most significant is that the method of operating the slewing clutches was changed from a lever to a handwheel by, probably, c. 1915, and all other preserved R&R cranes have the later arrangement. The method of slewing is different to that descrived above on handwheel-equipped cranes. Thank you so much for your detailed response... particularly as I had come to the conclusion that the cranes were fitted with two-speed lifting gear. Our model is intended for a model of the GW&GC Jt line circa 1912 and hence the model will be of either GWR no.2 or GWR no.3. So given what you have written above I shall be very pleased to receive information on the differences between those cranes. I have read the relevant sections of the BDCA website and as a result I have a question... what is the purpose of the kentledge? where does this item look like? how is it carried on the weight truck? thank you, Graham Beare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Graham, The kentledge is simply a craneman's term for a removable counterweight. On the R&R cranes which used them (ie the early ones) this was a large cast weight which bolts to the underside of the crab under the boiler area. The kentledge for No 2 (which miraculously survived at Buckfastleigh long after the departure of No 2, and which as a result I was able to recover) weighs approx 6 tons. For GW cranes 2 and 3 (and in fact for the Stothert & Pitt crane, No 1) , when not in use, it was carried in the "weight tender" rather than on the jib runner, along with the propping girders in the early days and the lifting tackle (R&R Nos 2 and 3 were both supplied with 8 propping girders, rather than the expected 4, and in many of the early photos such as the famous "Great Bear" picture the use of all 8 can clearly be seen). The GWR to start with did not allow the crane to run with the propping girders in situ in the girder boxes but insisted that all 8 plus the kentledge were carried in the weight tender. It did, in the fullness of time, allow 4 girders to remain in the boxes but never allowed the kentledge to be carried in situ, whereas the LSWR, for example, eventually did allow the kentledge to be carried fitted. In appearance the kentledge is a large cast block (approx 8' wide, 4' long, and 1' thick) shaped in plan like a capital "D"; the curve follows the rear curve of the superstructure, in width it matches the superstructure. If you look at the photo on the frontpage of the BDCA website (www.bdca.org.uk) showing Nos 3 (on the left) and 2 (on the right) lifting Dartmouth Castle at Swindon in 1925 you can clearly see the ketledge fitted to No 3, located between the top of the carriage and the bottom of the superstructure under the boiler area. This photo also clearly shows the arrangement of the Turnder boiler poking through the rear cab sheet, the location of No 3's right hand maker's plate (see text below) and also the acetylene gas producer (just ahead of the RH cab door) with which both cranes were fitted at this time. Note also the use of all eight propping girders on each crane, rather than the four most people assume. The process for fitting the kentledge was as follows. The crane, once the jib had been raised, was slewed through 180 degrees so that the jib was above the weight tender. The hook was lowered, and a chain bridle used to attach the kentledge to the hook using a pair of support bars cast into the top surface off the kentledge (now sadly far too rusty ever to be used again for this purpose)! The kentledge would be raised clear of the weight tender, then the jib derricked in to minimum radius. The kentledge would then be lowered by means of the burden gear to rest on the rear of the upper surface of the crane carriage, but since to do this it had to be lowered at a radius less than the minimum radius of the hook, a pair of chains was attached to link the lifting points on the kentledge to a special attachment point on theunderside of the jib (at, if I recall correctly, the centre of the second trnsverse brace from the foot of the jib). These chains cause the kentledge to swing towards the foot of the jib as it was lowered, and provided that they were of exactly the right length the weight would come to rest on four reinforced pads welded to the top of the carriage for this purpose. The kentledge was then detached from the hook and the jib slewed back through 180 degrees to face in the original direction. The resulted in the weight being correctly located under the back girders and fixed counterweight; all that remained was to raise it to the correct height and bolt it in situ. To raise the kentledge, four jackscrews, one on each corner, were used to lift it (a very slow and laborious job using the biggest ratchets I have ever seen). Once it was hard up against the bottom of the fixed couterweight, it was secured thereto with four substantial bolts and the jackscrews were raised clear of the carriage. The crane was then ready for use. After use, removal was the reverse of the same process. The whole process apparently took approximately half an hour with an experienced gang, provided that the crane had a good head of steam. In practice light lifts (up to 30 tons at 20' radius P&C) could be undertaken without the weight fitted, and by the 1970's BR tended to regard the crane as a 30-tonner (no kentledge) rather than a 36-tonner. I don't know when the kentledge was last used by BR, but it was fitted at least once by the DVLR when the crane was in Devon. The differences between Nos 2 and 3 were subtle in the extreme. When built, No 2 was fitted with a cab side window on the left hand side, which No 3 never had. I am not sure when this was abolished, but I have never seen a photo of the two cranes together where No 2 has the window still, so it was probably gone by about 1910. This window can be seen in one of the photos in Jim Russell's GW Wagons Appendix. Both cranes were built with the rather whacky E R & F Turner boilers, and in 1912 both would still have had these, the Swindon-built vertical firetube boilers not appearing until about 1917. From 1917 on either type of boiler could turn up in either crane, and the last sighting of a Turner boiler was in No 3 in the early 1960s. The only enduring distinguishing feature between the pair was in the location of the maker's plates; on No 2, the LH plate is mounted midships on the carriage, and the RH plate is mounted on the RH crab side about halfway up. On No3, both plates were mounted on the crab sides in a position rather lower and further forward than the RH plate on No 2. If you study the various published photos of the cranes and know this, you will see the difference in position clearly. Another detail to bear in mind if you are modelling c. 1912 is that both cranes then still had small water tanks with a banjo feed pump fitted to the front, screened by a modesty panel, rather than the extended tank which resulted in the loss of the feed pump. I have not been able to establish when this change came about, but it was definately after 1925 since the small tank can clearly be seen in the Dartmouth Castle photo mentioned above. The visual difference is however very minor. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 You may find Kevin Roberston's book catalogue of interest, especially page three: http://www.noodlebooks.co.uk/catalogue2/index.html Whilst a publication date is still to be confirmed, January or February next is likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Thank you Craneman for the detailed responses to my questions. A fascinating aspect of our railway history. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If you bought one of the Sanspareil kits for the R&R 36T crane (which was available at Telford this year)... have you got any instruction with the kit? Apologies for asking this question again... I understand that five kits were sold at Telford and I wish to know if anyone received any instructions... the information which has been received from Sanspareil recently may be not sufficient to complete construction of the crab because matching gears to the details in the gear / shaf table is proving difficult. thank you, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 If any one is building one of these kits I would love to see some pics. Especially the GW version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You may find Kevin Roberston's book catalogue of interest, especially page three: http://www.noodleboo...gue2/index.html Whilst a publication date is still to be confirmed, January or February next is likely. This book should be launched at the Southampton Show http://www.smrs.hampshire.org.uk/events/traders%202012.htm My father is expected to be there on Saturday, if anyone wants a signed copy. The actual division in the history of cranes is not that easy but volume 1 deals with all cranes without releiving bogies - so it covers this crane. Pretty much all cranes are drawn, including a lot of the varients, and there are a good number of photographs of each. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 On reading this thread, I had a look in the 'unbuilt cupboard' and found the 4mm kit that was available about 20 years ago for the RR 36 tonner. I assume this is the kit that Pendon built their model from that normally sits in the shed area of the Dartmoor scene. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craneman Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 That will indeed be the kit that appears at Pendon in completed form, the "version 1" of the kit. "Version 2" which is considerably refined and includes the weight tender - the open wagon for the kentledge and tackle - has as far as I know never been released although there is at least one (assembled) prototypes on the show circuit. "Coach bogie", I have sent you a PM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jitterbug1723 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 If anyone is still interested, I am now supplying RTR models of Ransome and Rapier 36-Ton Accident Cranes, as supplied to the GWR and numbered 2 & 3. They are produced in small batches and come with both the match-truck and weight-truck in 00, EM and P4 fully finished in a choice of liveries. I am also looking into the possibilities of producing the larger 45-ton Crane and the standard 6-ton travelling crane as well as the small Taylor Hubbard ash-cranes that were supplied to many of the larger sheds on the system, depending on the interest shown. I expect to have photos available shortly and hopefully some write-ups in the various magazines Steffan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davec.hh Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 I got quite excited untill I read 00, EM and P4 - no 7 mm? DaveC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jitterbug1723 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 As the kit seems to already be available via Sanspariel in 7mm, there was little point in my going down this route. I already have one of the GA Model's 36-tonners running on my P4 exhibition layout "Maindee East Engine Shed" and a beautiful kit it is indeed... if only it was available !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They are produced in small batches and come with both the match-truck and weight-truck in 00, EM and P4 fully finished in a choice of liveries. I Will it be available as a kit? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jitterbug1723 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Hi Jon, no kits are available, the models are essentially all scratchbuilt although building in batches helps keep costs down. Steffan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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