Ransomes and Rapier 36ton crane

[Steph Dale]

Hi guys,

 

After picking up a leaflet from Iain Young at the Telford show I'm wondering if anyone here has any further knowledge of the prototype for the Ransomes and Rapier 36t crane he's doing? It's described as being GWR and is sold with the 'wagons and mess and tool van'.

 

My interest was piqued by mention of similar machines on the Southern and I know I'm going to have a chellenge to try and find out a suitable set of vehicles to run with it in a Southern scenario. But, it would be useful to know (for example) whether it's a four- or five- axle crane, does it have a Stokes bogie, etc, etc. That way I can narrow-down which of the Southerns R&R 36-tonners it can be built to represent.

 

Many thanks,

 

Steph

[Gordon A]

There were two 36 ton RT & R cranes on the GWR, designated No 1 and No2.

Botht were five axle 0-6-4 configuration. The 6wheels rigid, and the rear 4 wheels in a bogie.

 

The Southern had a similar example but built later. Depending on which crane, and which boiler configuration Ian Young is doing you will nead to have a different cab back.

 

No1 spent all its working life based at Swindon, while No2 moved around.

 

Does Ian Young trade under a particular name?

 

Gordon A

[Steph Dale]

Does Ian Young trade under a particular name?

 

Gordon A

 

Erm yes; Sanspareil...

 

Thanks for your help with the details you've provided. I'm now certain I can use the crane kit, if I can get hold of one.

 

Cheers,

 

Steph

[Pint of Adnams]

Steph, if you PM Portchullin Tatty on this Forum and pose your question nicely he may be persuaded to refer it to his Father, Peter Tatlow, who is something of an expert on rail-mounted cranes.

[Portchullin Tatty]

and this was the answer my father came up with:

 

I had heard that someone was doing a Ransomes & Rapier kit for a GW 36 ton steam breakdown crane, but not being a GW man, took no further notice! The GW had a 36T crane from R&R in 1908 No 2, now preserved on the E Somerset Rly. It was always at Swindon. No 1 was a Stothert & Pitt 36T to the same specification, but different design supplied in May 1909. No 3 was another R&R supplied in July 1912 to Wolverhampton, later moving to Landore, Newton Abbot and Neath. Yes, all of these were 0-6-4s and the LNWR, LSWR and SR had similar, but revised designs. One of the SR's cranes is on the K&ESR.

Just to add a tantaliser, it is likely that my father's next books are going to be on cranes in the UK (not counting the next LNER Wagons which is already with Wild Swan). It is 18 months away at best as no agreements are yet in place with publishers, but there are about 50 drawings already done!

 

[hmrspaul]

There has been a lot about these SR cranes on SEMG.

 

I don't really understand the request, as the person to ask such specific questions of is the kit provider as he will know what he is providing.

 

Photographs of a SR R&R crane are in Stewarts Lane Breakdown crane & stock – 34 photographs

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c359991.html

 

Interesting to know Peter T is going ahead with the crane book - co-incidentally discussed this at the club about an hour ago - it has been on the cards for a long time (but so have some other projects rather nearer to home!)

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Hi guys,

 

After picking up a leaflet from Iain Young at the Telford show I'm wondering if anyone here has any further knowledge of the prototype for the Ransomes and Rapier 36t crane he's doing? It's described as being GWR and is sold with the 'wagons and mess and tool van'.

 

My interest was piqued by mention of similar machines on the Southern and I know I'm going to have a chellenge to try and find out a suitable set of vehicles to run with it in a Southern scenario. But, it would be useful to know (for example) whether it's a four- or five- axle crane, does it have a Stokes bogie, etc, etc. That way I can narrow-down which of the Southerns R&R 36-tonners it can be built to represent.

 

Many thanks,

 

Steph

[Steph Dale]

Portchullin Tatty,

 

Thanks for the thoughts, help, info; I shall have a good look out for the book when the time comes! Please pass on my grateful thanks to your father.

 

Paul,

 

Yep, the thread on SEmG was me too. There are a load of guys on there who are ex-railwaymen and have kept records of personal observations so it was very useful to form a picture of how the cranes were moved and used; and what vehicles went with them.

 

I agree with the 'contact the manufacturer' thought, but it appears that Iain is being his usual splendidly elusive self and I can't get an answer when I phone him and my last couple of emails have been unanswered.

 

Thanks to your help and wonderful collection of photos I've now got some really good views of the type of crane in question and also some of the vehicles used in support. It will make an interesting project; as and when I hear from Ian about the availability and price of the crane.

 

Cheers,

 

Steph

[Guest stuartp]

it is likely that my father's next books are going to be on cranes in the UK

 

Cracking ! I have your dad's drawings for several LMS cranes as part of a very long term project, I shall look forward to this !

[Rob Pulham]

 

I agree with the 'contact the manufacturer' thought, but it appears that Iain is being his usual splendidly elusive self and I can't get an answer when I phone him and my last couple of emails have been unanswered.

 

Thanks to your help and wonderful collection of photos I've now got some really good views of the type of crane in question and also some of the vehicles used in support. It will make an interesting project; as and when I hear from Ian about the availability and price of the crane.

 

Cheers,

 

Steph

Steph, I spoke to Iain earlier in the month before Telford about something else entirely but the conversation got around to the crane and he mentioned the price for the crane and supporting trucks etc. would be around the £750 mark. What I didn't ask was whether that was the kit price or RTR

[Steph Dale]

Rob,

 

I just dug the flyer out and that £750 includes a 70' M&T van (coach) and two trucks (one of which, I assume, is a jib runner) to give a full set for the GWR version.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't say how much the crane will be on it's own, but does say that it will be available. Having seen the parts he had on show at Telford I look forward to finding out more when I get the chance.

 

Steph

[Portchullin Tatty]

On the topic of cranes, if there is any interest in the Cowans Sheldon 15T crane that was delivered for the Highland Railway then it is probable that there will be a kit of this manufactured by Alistair Wright.

 

Details of how to get this can be found here http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=953 which is on the S4 Society's webforum (the kit by the way is available to all from Alistair but there will only ever be one production run).

 

Please note it is not appropriate for other lines that had the Cowan Sheldon crane, sorry you will have to pay upwards of £200 for the next one that comes up on ebay for that.

[Steph Dale]

Actually the D&S version of a Cowans Sheldon seems to be fairly readily available. I think I saw one on Danny's stand at Telford; he certainly had them at Kettering. Unfortunately, although the Southern (and precedents) had a couple of them, I can't find any reference to them being used on the area of the Southern I'm interested in.

 

DS316, the Stewarts Lane one (ex Brighton No.17) would be interesting in the period though: two SECR corridor tri-composite brakes were used as the M&T wagons...

 

Steph

[Portchullin Tatty]

Actually the D&S version of a Cowans Sheldon seems to be fairly readily available. I think I saw one on Danny's stand at Telford; he certainly had them at Kettering.

 

I take it you mean the 4mm one? If you do, I suspect that it is not widely known as they really do fetch £200 on ebay!

 

Danny should advertise a bit more! Although I know that he is not so interested in perpetuating the 4mm range.

[Steph Dale]

I take it you mean the 4mm one?

 

Mark,

 

Errr, no. This being the 7mm area (and the Sanspareil crane only being available in 7mm scale) I was referring to the 7mm version...!

 

I was wondering if we'd got our wires crossed somewhere - it appeared from the link you posted that the Highland crane was 4mm scale, rather than 7mm.

 

Steph

[Adam]

I take it you mean the 4mm one? If you do, I suspect that it is not widely known as they really do fetch £200 on ebay!

 

Danny should advertise a bit more! Although I know that he is not so interested in perpetuating the 4mm range.

 

Which is ten times what I paid for mine! Still awaiting the Brassmasters details for that...

 

Adam

[Pint of Adnams]

Danny should advertise a bit more! Although I know that he is not so interested in perpetuating the 4mm range.

Dan has recently re-released the 4mm scale GER carriage kits (swamped with demand apparently), and this month will be re-releasing the various 4mm scale horse box kits (for which a large number of pre-orders have been placed). Who knows what else might follow in 4mm?

 

However, the downside is that he's not spending so much time on stuff for us 7mm modellers.

[Rob Pulham]

Rob,

 

I just dug the flyer out and that £750 includes a 70' M&T van (coach) and two trucks (one of which, I assume, is a jib runner) to give a full set for the GWR version.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't say how much the crane will be on it's own, but does say that it will be available. Having seen the parts he had on show at Telford I look forward to finding out more when I get the chance.

 

Steph

Thanks Steph, it's a shame that it's a GWR crane it sounded wonderful when Iain described it but it's the wrong end of the country for me sadly, but I do fancy one of Dan's 7mm Cowans sheldon kit's.

[Steph Dale]

Thanks Steph, it's a shame that it's a GWR crane it sounded wonderful when Iain described it but it's the wrong end of the country for me sadly, but I do fancy one of Dan's 7mm Cowans sheldon kit's.

 

Rob,

 

I think it's likely to be pretty special. I'm not into the GWR either, which is why I was interested in the crane being available on its own. I understand that R&R supplied similar 36t cranes to LMS and SR. I'm looking at the SR options...

 

Steph

[Rob Pulham]

Rob,

 

I think it's likely to be pretty special. I'm not into the GWR either, which is why I was interested in the crane being available on its own. I understand that R&R supplied similar 36t cranes to LMS and SR. I'm looking at the SR options...

 

Steph

 

Ah, that alters the situation entirely. Iain said he would be taking them to Halifax next year (he normally doesn't go to HX ) so I should get a chance to have a look then and by that point they may be available on their own as you suggest.

[craneman]

The two 36-ton cranes R&R supplied to the GWR were numbered 2 and 3 (the 36-tonner which carried the number 1 was supplied by Stothert & Pitt) as noted above. No 2 was always allocated to Swindon Factory later Central Workshops Authority, No 3 moved around a bit. No 2 was the first 5-axle 36-ton crane in the UK and when built was (briefly) the largest breakdown crane in the UK. It also, remarkably, is actually the last steam powered breakdown crane to make a lift on BR network. More info on this crane can be found on the East Somerset Rly website.

 

The bad news for Southern enthusiasts is that there were several fundamental and significant differences between the GWR pair and the subsequent 5-axle 36-ton cranes for the SR and others, and the fundamental dimensions differ considerably. Having said that, the general resemblance is close and there is little doubt that this model will be the best yet by a considerable margin.

 

The GW 36-tonners always ran with two associated wagons. Firstly a bogie wagon which acted as a jib runner, which was bult by the GWR at Swindon, and featured the roller support for the jib and substantial toolboxes (actually used for timber packing for blocking up the crane). The secodn wagon which always ran with the crane was a "weight tender", which was a long dropside wagon which was coupled to the tail-end of the crane. This wagon carried the 6-ton removable kentledge (ie tailweight), as well as (initially) the eight propping girders supplied with the crane. Before long, the GWR relaxed the rules for the crane and allowed four of the girders to remain in situ in the girder boxes of the crane when travelling, but the other 4 were carried in the wagon. It should perhaps be explained that although the crane only has four girder boxes, the original intention was that each box carried two girders, one projecting on each side, so that there were four girders on each side. In practice, this (totally unecessary) arrangement seems to have been seldom used, and the 'extra' set of girders was discarded quite early in the crane's service life. Fitting the girders and kentledge takes about 1/2 hour after steam has been raised. Unlike the SR, the GW never allowed the crane to run in train formation with the counterweight fitted. These I presume are the two wagons in the set.

 

The Swindon crane also had associated with it a 62' bogie combined tool and mess van, of which the GWR had in total 4. One was allocated to Swindon Factory, and consequently if the crane was travelling to an accident it is likely that it would have travelled in company with the van (there is a nice photo of the full Swindon Factory breakdown train, crane, wagons, and van, in Jim Russell's GW Wagons Appendix). The No 3 crane was seldom, if ever, allocated to a depot with a bogie van and was therefore more likely to be seen in company with the traditional individual 4 or 6 wheel tool and mess vans. I have never seen a photo of No 3 with a bogie van.

 

In practice, accidents were rare on the GW and the cranes spent far more time on civil engineering work than accident work. For such, they would travel without the breakdown van (which would remain at the depot/factory in case of derailments) and with just the jib runner and weight tender. Photos of GWR2 are far from rare (studies have shown it to be the most photographed breakdown crane in Britain) but very, very few show it in company with the van.

 

Another remarkable feature of No 2 is that in 1925 the GWR (actually a fellow named William Stanier, on behalf of George Jackson Churchward) wrote to R&R to enquire what modifications would be needed to allow GWR2 to lift 50 ton loads. Fortunately a copy of this correspondence has survived with the cranes exam and boiler records, and in the reply R&R stated "...we beg to state that our crane will be quite suitable for this without any alteration or additional counterbalance..." and "...this crane is allowed to lift 50 ton loads occasionally at 20ft. radius." Not bad for a 36-ton crane which was already 17-years old!

 

If anyone has a copy of the flyer for this model that they would be willing to copy and let me have, or can provide any further information about it (the model, that is) I would be very grateful.

[3 link]

Hi Craneman,

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us, very informative reading.

 

Martyn.

[Steph Dale]

Craneman,

 

Thanks for taking the time to give us so much useful detail. I'm sure any prospective purchasers of the Sans Pareil crane (like myself!) will consider themselves much better informed. The operational details alone are of enormous value...

 

I was wondering if you have any knowledge about how the GWR cranes relate to the LSWR's no.6 (later DS35, supplied by Ransomes and Rapier in 1918), which seems closer in date and detail to the GWR versions. This is the crane I'm intending to build up from the Sans Pareil kit.

 

Best wishes and many thanks,

 

Steph

[craneman]

You're most welcome, I am glad my ramblings are of interest. I have been studying of the subject of steam BDCs (breakdown cranes) for many years, and have a particular interest in GWR2 since I happen to have the good fortune to own the 12"/ft version at the moment.

 

Of the Southern cranes, 6/35S is the only one which a model of GWR2 could reasonably pass for. However (and working from memory) the carriage on 35 was deeper in section, the wheelbase and axle spacing was subtly different (longer), the configuration of the water tank was different (manifested by the presence of two windows in the rear cab sheet compared to the GWR crane single window), and it had an entirely different design of boiler. I also have a very strong suspicion that the GWR crane was both wider and taller than the LSWR and Southern cranes, but I need to check this. Certainly there is far more room in the cab of GWR 2 than there is in the cab of DS1580 (preserved at the Mid-Hants), and I would estimate that the GWR crane is a good foot wider and taller due to the GWR's more relaxed loading gauge (note however that 1580 was designed to the British Composite Loading Gauge and as such was capable of travelling anywhere; it is possible that it is smaller than the earlier cranes - I need to check).

 

GWR2 was supplied with a strange boiler built by and to a design of E R & F Turner of Ipswich, which featured a smokebox projecting through the rear cab sheet. In about 1915 the GWR built a replacement boiler or boilers to fit Nos 1, 2, and 3 which was a conventional (albeit old-fashioned by then) vertical firetube boiler designed and built at Swindon. The boiler which has survived with No 2 into preservation is this VFT boiler (which is in rather poor condition and at present is one of the biggest impediments to restoration).

 

The origins of 35S, and indeed the other LSWR/SR cranes from R&R, stem back to No 2 on the GWR. IIRC it was Robert Urie who sent a team to inspect the crane at Swindon and was sufficiently impressed with the GWR crane to order one for the LSWR, however he refused point-blank to have a Turner boiler and insisted that a Spencer-Hopwood cross tube boiler was fitted instead. For reasons that remain unclear, the GWR seemed to disfavour Hopwood boilers (despite GWR No 1 crane from Stothert & Pitt being fitted with one) and did not consider specifying them for Nos 2 and 3. In some ways this was typical Swindon arrogance, sticking with outdated technology long after they should have known better! The Hopwood boiler is superior to both the Turner and Swindon VFT designs by a considerable margin.

 

(As an interesting - well, possibly interesting - digression, it was the evolution of the R&R crane design which can be seen through GWR 2, LSWR 6, SR 80/81, SR 1196/7, which ultimately resulted in the 'standard' 45-ton crane with relieving bogies which arrived with the batch of 6 built to government order immediately before the war. All of the SR cranes had Hopwood boilers, as did the wartime 5-tonners. The first two of the wartime cranes went to the Southern as 1560 and 1561, and inter alia performed valuable service in the defence of Britain during WW2 when they were used to erect and support the heavy coastal artillery near Dover (but that is a story for another time). Both 1560 and 1561 were sold out of service by BR into preservation, by then being the last steam BDCs in service, and were stored out of use for many years in a yard at Swindon. In about 2004 the yard had to be cleared and 1560 was moved to Tyesley, but in April this year to the great surprise and dismay of many crane enthusiasts (yes there are such people!) it was sold for scrap and broken up. Thanks to the considerable understanding and co-operation of the scrap dealer, I was able to buy the Hopwood boiler from 1560 to use to replace the rather poor Swindon VFT boiler in No 2. So, finally some 100+ years after it should have had such a boiler it will eventually get one.

 

Despite the differences between GWR 2 and SR 35, there can be no doubt that this kit will be, by a very considerable margin, the finest 7mm steam breakdown crane kit yet produced (I use the word 'yet' with car, since I know someone who is developing a 7mm version of the LMS crane MP3 to a standard which almost defies belief)! I can see no reason at all for not using one as the basis for a model of 35 and there is probably only a very small number of people who would spot the difference. I haven't myself seen a recent flyer for the GWR 2 kit and the only photo I have seen is of a prototype at a time when the kit was, I beleive, the IPR of another manufacturer. I do know that this chap measured up the prototype because he asked for my permission to do so! However, it was apparent from the photo that there was a number of errors which I hope will have been corrected by the time the kit hits the street.

 

Reverting (at last, I hear you cry!) to the original question, I will look through my collection of drawings etc to see if I have a GA (general arrangement) drawing for 35 to compare dimensions with No 2. As you probably know there are copious photos of 35 in Bill Bishop's book "Off the Rails" which is widely and cheaply available, and is a valuable resource to anyone thinking of modelling 35, or, indeed, anyone intersted in cranes, so it shouldn't be too difficult to spot the principal areas of difference. I am actually away from home at the moment but will try to provide an update when I am back.

 

Also, please forgive the typos which probably litter this post - due to being away from base I am having to work on a netbook with a keyboard which was clearly not designed for a steam crane engineer's stumpy fingers!

 

Finally, you might be interested in a new website which a friend (and fellow steam crane operator) and I have been working on to promote a new organisation we have established to promote the preservation and safe operation etc of heritage cranes. The site is not yet officially live and is still in 'beta' form, but should be accessible at http://www.bdca.org.uk/ There are still several things to sort out, many of which are be apparent, but feedback would be welcomed.

[Steph Dale]

Craneman,

 

Thank you for another very informative reply! I'm delighted that there's someone who's so willing and able to answer these sorts of questions. I was aware the subject was a potential minefield. You've managed to both confirm it for me (us?) and also clearly navigate a way through...

 

I'm hoping to hear back from Iain at Sans Pareil about the crane, but if not then I will try and follow up with him at Reading. With your encouragement I'm now well and truly ready to start looking at the model of 35s. Time for me to start working out my parts and cutting list for the coaches and jib runner to go with it.

 

Once again, many thanks,

 

Steph

P.s. You have a PM, I've managed to send it now...

[Steph Dale]

I spoke to Iain at lunchtime today about the crane. He's currently looking at a release early next year: his final British outline kit. The castings and etchings are apparently ready to go, but he wants to get one built to the production specification before release, so that the model can be photographed and the instructions can be updated.

 

The GWR version with the van and wagons will be £750 for the kit(s). For the Southern modeller, Iain is looking at whether the jib runner for 80s and 81s can be produced although he acknowledges that there are detail and dimensional differences between these two cranes and the GWR version. The crane will also be available on its own for modellers of the LNWR/LMS and LSWR/SR, but without jib runners or other vehicles as he's not been able to find out what they should be. Similarly he can't confirm how well the crane represents those supplied to the LNWR or LSWR. Prices for the non-GWR versions haven't been set yet, but Iain did make the point that the crane itself is the significant part of the price of the set.

 

So that's the story so far. And yes, I'm still likely to get one...!

 

Steph