Driver changes etc,how often?

[Wummyock]

Hi just wondered if anyone could help out with my queries.How often would drivers have been changed on BR in the 80's.Also what is the operational limit mileage wise for class 31,33,37,45,47,50,56's before needing to refuel?One last question if a Speedlink service ran from the midlands down to the south west(and vice versa) would the loco be used on the next available service to get it back to its home depot?

[cb900f]

 

Wummyock

Simple questions you may think but harder to answer.

With regards to fuel, at my depot we used to say 1 mile per gallon with the last 100 gallon possibly containing sludge.

Drivers would be diagrammed to be changed taking into account miles covered, number of hours in the seat (pass was different to freight ) Pnb (meal/snap/bait ) time to be taken between 3rd and 5th hour, Route knowledge, best use of staff (not always ). We had diagramms where we sat around anywhere between 3 and 5 hrs ( B/ham, Nottm, Leeds, York) boy was that boring. I did swap for the York job on the Easter Sats and go to the exhibition.

Regards Speedlink or any other service it depended on the maintenance schedule for that particular loco.

I know to a lot of people it's hard to believe but everything was diagrammed / rostered ( unforeseen problems excepted )

But I am sure there are members on here who can explain in greater detail than I have just glossed over .

 

Cheers Pete

[Guest stuartp]

Crumbs. It depends.

 

A driver's 'range' is limited by (at least) two things - route knowledge and local rostering arrangements. Both of those would be depot-specific and both would alter over time as agreements were made and re-made, and traffic flows were swapped between depots. Each depot (management and staff) fought hard to retain work and route knowledge, and therefore establishment (staff numbers) as that kept the depot viable. The driver needs a PNB (Personal Needs Break - butties and bog) at some point too so that has to be factored in somewhere around the 3rd to 5th hour of his shift. He needs to be at a messroom at that point.

 

The only example I can give you is post-Speedlink I'm afraid but it gives you an idea. When the Drax - Kirkby Thore gypsum trains started in 1994 (under BR/Trainload Freight) they were worked by a Knottingley driver as far as Skipton, then a Skipton man to Kirby Thore. He had his butties in the mess cabin at at Kirkby Thore while the train was unloaded, then took the empties to Skipton where another Knottingley man would relieve him. Now I believe one driver works the whole trip.

 

At the same time, my current boss was a driver at York. They had one diagram which involved collecting demic locos at York and dropping them off at the various Level 5 depots for repair, which meant they retained route knowledge to Stratford, Crewe, Birmingham and a couple of other places York men normally didn't go. The job lasted all day, ran and was routed as required, and with no relief en route.

 

Dunno about loco utilisation, that was always a black art. I think range on a full tank was measured in hundreds of miles on most locos.

 

Depots had reputations too. In my experience Healey Mills men on engineering jobs would work all day, whereas Tinsley men would be in the 'box within 5 minutes of arriving wanting to know where their relief was. There's also the joke about Neil Armstrong taking one giant leap for mankind to find Saltley men waiting to work the return trip...

[The Stationmaster]

Loco range was - as already noted above - basically 1 mile per gallon and allow for the final 100+ gallons in the tanks being unusable. However generally fuelling tended to be more frequent than was essential. The only exception was the Class 60 which when first introduced and during their BR years were specifically 'computer run'(by Derby Train Performance people - not in the diagramming offices) for all their planned trips and the fuelling intervals were calculated fairly precisely from that, which took into account loads as well as the route. And it was pretty precise - on one occasion the Driver on the Immingham - Langley tanks decided from the fuel gauge that he had no real reason to go to Old oak for fuel before the back working so he didn't, the loco ran out of fuel 7 miles from the spot the computer had predicted B) .

 

Traincrew working was more complex and still had Regional oddities but basically it was built around trying to get as much productivity out of someone in the appropriate length of shift while meeting all the manning and safety criteria. Train speeds made a difference too - once HSTs came in on the Western London men worked to Exeter, while Exeter men worked to London or Penzance and Penzance men could work through to Exeter, a massive change from what had happened before. Equally London men could comfortably get to Swansea and back in a turn.

[Wummyock]

Thanks for that.1mpg is pretty low!!!!I assume the newer locos ie 66's have a better fuel economy?I thought the answer may be harder to give and it does look like a logistical nightmare for the planners.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Depots had reputations too. In my experience Healey Mills men on engineering jobs would work all day, whereas Tinsley men would be in the 'box within 5 minutes of arriving wanting to know where their relief was. There's also the joke about Neil Armstrong taking one giant leap for mankind to find Saltley men waiting to work the return trip...

 

Saltley men were known as 'seagulls' - because they cr*pped on every other depot. And they weren't the only ones who would have allegedly been waiting on the moon for Neil Armstrong - Didcot and Eastleigh also had that reputation.

[D6975]

I can tell you that the Lindsey-Langley oil used to be a return trip that was just too far for a 47 to make the return trip without refuelling. That was why a batch of IM 47s had their water tanks converted to extra fuel tanks, the first 'twin tank' 47s, later many more were done of course, including the 47/8s. When 60s took over, they couldn't make the return trip without refuelling and used to refuel while the tankers were unloaded (at OC IIRC).

In the days of loco hauled N&W services, 37/4s used to do 2 return trips Cardiff-Liverpool or Manchester without refuelling.

[cb900f]

Saltley men were known as 'seagulls' - because they cr*pped on every other depot. And they weren't the only ones who would have allegedly been waiting on the moon for Neil Armstrong - Didcot and Eastleigh also had that reputation.

 

Sorry Mike

But actually it was Wath men waiting engine and brake.

 

I don't think the 66s are that more economical, just prior to leaving EWS the instruction came down to refrain from using notch 8 (max fuel) to save fuel and indeed i seem to rememder that notch 8 was blanked off on some. Again someone will correct me if wrong.

 

Pete

[Galtee More]

Sorry Mike

But actually it was Wath men waiting engine and brake.

 

I don't think the 66s are that more economical, just prior to leaving EWS the instruction came down to refrain from using notch 8 (max fuel) to save fuel and indeed i seem to rememder that notch 8 was blanked off on some. Again someone will correct me if wrong.

 

Pete

 

That's not surprising really, the EMD engine is a two-stroke (Stroke 1 (down): Power/Induction; Stroke 2 (up): Exhaust/Compression).

 

I remember reading an article in Trains magazine about an Amtrak service. Whilst the Engineers (Drivers) preferred the EMD locos (I think it was because of the ride quality), the GEs would do the job on 250 gallons less ! In fact now, most freight roads seem to have a higher proportion of GEs to EMDs; I read yesterday that Union Pacific now has 70% GE/30% EMD.

 

Ian

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that.1mpg is pretty low!!!!I assume the newer locos ie 66's have a better fuel economy?I thought the answer may be harder to give and it does look like a logistical nightmare for the planners.

 

Not really - they were, mostly, intelligent folk who knew what they were at within the constraints they faced. Anyone who could put together a 5 day cyclic diagram, which thus required 5 locos, for diesels was a fairly bright sort of person in my experience, and that was without any computer aid at all.

[Rugd1022]

Sorry Mike

But actually it was Wath men waiting engine and brake.

 

I don't think the 66s are that more economical, just prior to leaving EWS the instruction came down to refrain from using notch 8 (max fuel) to save fuel and indeed i seem to rememder that notch 8 was blanked off on some. Again someone will correct me if wrong.

 

Pete

 

On our FLHH 66s there's a 'stop' fitted on the throttle opening on notch 8 to discourage us from using full power, but on most of the gradients we encounter we really need the extra oomph. By pulling the throttle out slightly then pushing it forward we can still engage notch 8.... if we didn't we'd lose loads of time and delay everything else that's behind us

 

Nidge

[cb900f]

Nidge

I stand corrected, I think that applies to DBS's as well now you mention it.

 

Cheers Pete

[big jim]

and GBRF.....

 

 

the lack of notch 8 really impacted on the timings and causes delays, however..............

 

 

AVE IT!!

 

67's have the collars on too

 

at drs we had a job where you were passenger to rugby then worked a train from dirft to carlisle , that was 5 and a bit hours driving, right on the limit of time in the seat, once you got to carlisle it was into lodge at about 02:00 and work the stobart back at 22:00 the same day, cracking job, always liked to change for it, that was the longest time i did in the seat without a break and pretty much the longest distance (230 miles or so)

 

fastline were long jobs (11 hours plus most of the time) but with a lot of down time, maybe 2 or 3 hours in a colliery or power station and then van driving to or from a relieving point.

[Guest Phil]

Hi just wondered if anyone could help out with my queries.How often would drivers have been changed on BR in the 80's.

 

In the early 1980s, BS men worked to ;

Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester, Derby, Toton, Nottingham, Leicester, Willesden / Euston, Didcot, Gloucester and Shrewsbury.

 

Some extended to Bristol, Tinsley and Wrexham, then later on on the late 1980s into the 1990s Cardiff, Wakefield, Scunthorpe, Peterboro, Cambrian coast, Marches etc.

 

From dieselisation up until the late 1970s it was probably unusual for a BS driver to go much further afield than Toton, Stoke, Crewe or Gloucester, and looking at the work achieved in those days it is quite cringeworthy.

 

Some jobs were "one wayers", a typical job being the china clay empties from Stoke to St Blazey. 6V70 was timed at 1725 out of Bescot and crew always booked on early for it. They were up the north end, on their loco and gone - often early. After storming the Dudley line, they sometimes had to plead to the "bobby" at Stourbridge Jn to let them run in front of the Kidderminster or Worcester bound DMU. Promises were made to keep out of the way and I've heard (very believable) tales of those white ladies rocking and rolling at 90 mph on their way to Gloucester - the reason ?

 

If the men got to Gloucester earlier enough, they were able to catch a much earlier train back, "flog their ticket" and be in the boozer before the towels went on !!!!

 

Also what is the operational limit mileage wise for class 31,33,37,45,47,50,56's before needing to refuel?One last question if a Speedlink service ran from the midlands down to the south west(and vice versa) would the loco be used on the next available service to get it back to its home depot?

 

From memory, the only speedlink trains from the Midlands down to the southwest were the Speedlink Coal Network (SCN) services, where Didcot was a hub. There was a service from Toton to Washwood Heath, thence to Didcot. connections from there I believe went to Westbury and Yeovil in the West.

 

SCN had a number of class 37s which I think included 37131, 37162, 37235 etc These always cycled their way through the SCN network.

 

Locos then and now work to diagrams, although it is far less likely for a loco to adhere to a planned diagram for more than a couple of days in the UK. European locos sometimes had 7, 10 or even 12 day diagrams which they religiously adhered to. BR had multi tasking diagrams, one of which involved a freight loco working Bescot-Gloucester, then returning on 1M60 1505 Plymouth-Manchester from Gloucester to New St. This could be anything from a pair of 20s to a class 47.