Brass Coach Construction

[cary hill]

I am currently grappling with a Comet Coach Kit and I am getting towards the stage where the instructions recommend fixing the coach roof to the shell. Comet seem to advocate fixing it for primarily for purposes of rigidity as I understand it, but I can't help but notice that there seem to be plenty of alternative "guides" which advocate fixing the roof at a much later stage. I assume there is no "correct" method but what are the "Pros and Cons"?

 

As this is such a basic question if it has already been discussed a "steer" towards that discussion would be appreciated.

 

 

[Adrian Wintle]

I tend to install the roof later in the process. I find that doing it that way makes painting and glazing the shell a whole lot simpler. Once I have the roof complete and painted and the shell complete, painted, and glazed I will fix the roof to the shell.

 

Adrian

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Since a Comet coach kit was my first and since I tend to follow instructions to the letter, I fitted it when it said to fit it. It wasn't the easiest job, it needs a lot of cutting and shaping at the ends (my kit was the BRCW built Bulleid design with bowed ends and corridor connections in white metal).

 

Also, with corridor coaches, the roof vents are handed as to the side they are fitted.

 

I also used superglue (against the advice in the instructions) to attach the brass sides to the extruded aluminium roof but araldite to attach each end

[Mallard60022]

[quote name='cary hill' timestamp='1285002211' post='218959']

I am currently grappling with a Comet Coach Kit and I am getting towards the stage where the instructions recommend fixing the coach roof to the shell. Comet seem to advocate fixing it for primarily for purposes of rigidity as I understand it, but I can't help but notice that there seem to be plenty of alternative "guides" which advocate fixing the roof at a much later stage. I assume there is no "correct" method but what are the "Pros and Cons"?

As this is such a basic question if it has already been discussed a "steer" towards that discussion would be appreciated.

 

How about taping (cheapo decorating paper masking tape) the cut & 'fettled' roof to the shell for rigidity AND have the underframe bolted in place whilst you do the end detailing then remove them for painting as separate parts, fixing the door handles and any grab rails after painting and fitting in the interior ? That's what I do, but hardly ever get round to the paining bit!!!!!

I also have spare roof lengths that I can use as temp 'braces' (taped again).

I wouldn't agree with the comment that it isn't that easy to cut and shape the roof; a bit tricky maybe, not easy - no! Just check the plan for accurate length*, mark the roof for total length required (+ a mm) which of course includes slight overhang, mark the cross line with a square and then cut the roof square.

If you then cut out the paper roof plan, (*having before checked that it is the length you need compared to the coach body length- see above) and tape that carefully and accurately to the roof, you have the perfect surface for drilling once you have used a scriber to make a little guide mark/indent for the vents etc. You also have the correct angles for the 'bow' ends). You can then refit the paper plan so you have the 'complete' paperwork again (if a little distressed!)

The little rebates on the undersides of the ends can be filed easily, using a sawing square or similar to hold the roof against.

I always cut my roof a tiny bit bigger on all lines as it is easy to file down the excess.

My opinion is that fixing the roof as late as possible (similar to Adrian's comments) is best. I also use Evo Stick all round as it is flexible and you can get that roof off later if you should need to (e.g to fit a more accurate profile one). If the glue seeps out a bit it is dead easy to 'rub off too! Been there and done that many times!

Do post a pic or two of your efforts.

The second, third etc. Comet Coach you build (as long as it's not a Gresley Brake or GWR Centenary!!!!!!!) will be easier and so on. Leave the aforementioned for a while!

Sincerely, 36E

[jwealleans]

Where will it separate once complete? I build mine so they come apart at the solebar and so generally use a brass roof soldered on fairly early in the process. If you have trouble with the shell not being rigid, try adding brass strip or angle along the top of the sides or on the inside of the bottom of each side.

[coachmann]

I used to hate painting coaches for clients that built coaches with roof fixed and floor loose. Too much masking up when spraying and attendant risk of pulling off paint. If the roof is loose it can be sprayed any colour without it going on the sides and set aside, whereas masking off the sides and spraying the chassis and ends black is far less risky. Also the widest part of a coach is at the top, not the bottom, so it makes sence to drop the interior in from the top. It is also easier to fit glazing.

 

Not everyone agrees with this so you makes up your own mind in the end.

Larry

[jwealleans]

And there's the difference between the professional and the amateur. I can't hide the joins when I fit a removable roof; Larry can. He' s right about the masking, but I tend to spray the sides and brush paint the ends and roof. It can be awkward to get the interior in, but once it's built, how often do you take it apart? As the man says, it's down to your own preference in the end; find what's best for you and stick to it.

[10800]

I tend to prefer fixing the roof last, especially when I'm usually making my own (for Roxey kits) rather than use the extruded plastic offering provided. Sometimes the roof never gets permanently fixed! And I like to be able to remove the roof sometimes.

 

Reasons include:

 

1) Make-up of kit (Roxeys are brass apart from the roof)

2) Ease of painting

3) Ability to make up the interior separately and drop-in (see also (2))

4) Can get in to fix the odd window that's fallen out (or rather in), or to place passengers

 

How to fix the roof to allow this is another subject - bolts and captive nuts between the roof and the floor is traditional, but can create an unsightly addition to an interior, especially in an open coach.

[ArthurK]

Two options here! It depends on when you intend to add the interior detail. If the floor is permanently attached to the sides then leave it until the latter is complete (and painted?). However if the floor pan drops out from the sidea the the roof can be added early and will give a nice rigid shell. Take your pick!

[coachmann]

Gluing the roof to the sides gives no more of a rigid shell than soldering the floor to the sides. Comet floors have folded up sides. The sides have to be careful levered over these folded up bits and re-assembly can lead to paint chipping off. It is far easier to glue a roof in place. How? Solder a strip of brass to the top of the ends as shewn below. The roof can then be glued to these two strips with evostick.

[cary hill]

Thanks to you all for your generous contributions.

 

My conclusions are broadly that there is no compelling reason for permanently fixing the roof at an early stage in the construction process, if the "rigid shell" argument is not a particularly strong one, and it would appear that there are some very good reasons for not doing so when the painting/glazing stage is eventually reached.

 

I have now cut the roof section to approximately 2mm over required length and fettled it to fit inside the bodyshell snugly (not fixed) and also bent up the floor pan sides to test the fit of that as well and to give me a temporary "box". Leaving the roof on and and removing the floor pan or vice versa, both, not surpisingly, reduce overall rigidity but by the about same degree. The option of temporarily taping the roof to the shell for the fitting of some components appears to have merit.

 

I suspect my choice of a 70' GWR 'South Wales' Corridor Third as a first attempt at soldered brass coach construction was, with hindsight, not the most intelligent choice and one I might yet regret, but it was a complete kit with wheels picked up on the 'Bay for less than £20. At least the ten compartments and their associated separate windows have been good for soldering practice and seating/ compartment fixing practice and I may just be able to fabricate some square and level bogies when the time comes.

[Mallard60022]

I suspect my choice of a 70' GWR 'South Wales' Corridor Third as a first attempt at soldered brass coach construction was, with hindsight, not the most intelligent choice and one I might yet regret, but it was a complete kit with wheels picked up on the 'Bay for less than £20. At least the ten compartments and their associated separate windows have been good for soldering practice and seating/ compartment fixing practice and I may just be able to fabricate some square and level bogies when the time comes.

 

Sounds like a bargain and if it turns out to be just a bit less of a masterpiece than you want then it could go into departmental service. However you have then had the soldering experience that seems to put so many off! Well done so far. If you drop an email to Geoff at Comet he will recommend a good ex GWR/WR coach to do next if you want that sort of coach. Otherwise, just ask what's a good un for an 'early builder'!

36E

[Adrian Wintle]

I suspect my choice of a 70' GWR 'South Wales' Corridor Third as a first attempt at soldered brass coach construction was, with hindsight, not the most intelligent choice and one I might yet regret, but it was a complete kit with wheels picked up on the 'Bay for less than £20. At least the ten compartments and their associated separate windows have been good for soldering practice and seating/ compartment fixing practice and I may just be able to fabricate some square and level bogies when the time comes.

 

Aside from the quantity of droplights (and the associated glazing effort), the 70' corridor third is a relatively simple kit. If you are looking at the Comet GWR kits, the 57' Collett stock is probably the simplest (droplights are half-etched), followed by the various 60'-61' large window and Sunshine stock (few doors). The Centenaries and some of the catering cars are the trickier ones that I've attempted.

 

Adrian

[coachmann]

Aside from the quantity of droplights (and the associated glazing effort), the 70' corridor third is a relatively simple kit. If you are looking at the Comet GWR kits, the 57' Collett stock is probably the simplest (droplights are half-etched),

It is useful to know exactly which kits have etched in droplights. I hate the things loose so glazing a 70 footer would be interesting to say the least..... .

[artisan100]

If you're really desperate, Larry, I'll go right through my big cupboards and provide you with a complete list of etched in/separate droplights.

 

Incidentally, I have mentioned this on RMWeb before, but the first Comet sides all had etched in droplights, but following numerous requests from customers the design was changed to separate ones. Apart from the greater realism of the recessed droplight it also allowed modellers to introduce the occasional half open droplight in their coaches for Summer workings. There has never been a big clamour for a return to the etched in variety, and perhaps it's another example of the differing preferences of the professional builder and the amateur, as with the fitting of the roof or underframe to the sides box. After all, Larry, you were making a living out of painting/glazing coaches and I agree that fitting 43 separate glazing pieces in a GWR 70' corridor third would be time consuming and therefore expensive, but maybe the person who is doing it 'for fun' will he happier to get the more correct recessed droplights at the expense of their (free) time. This may just be another instance of something that is down to personal preference rather than what is right or wrong.

 

Geoff

 

Comet Models

[coachmann]

I cannot dissagree with what you say Geoff. Yes I'm a professional builder but whatever I say is afterall a personal preference becasue I'm also an enthusiast. Fitting separate droplights and the difficulty of trying to glue glazing to whatever brass is left either side of droplights is ...er......interesting! I don't believe in making things harder for myself than need be, but some modellers have these brillaint ideas (separate droplight being one) which actually make life difficult for the rest of us, and especially those dipping their feet into coach building for the first time. As for "more correct recessed droplights", 15though brass allows a deeper recess. But there we are....

[Adrian Wintle]

It is useful to know exactly which kits have etched in droplights. I hate the things loose so glazing a 70 footer would be interesting to say the least..... .

 

I actually should have said 57' Collett Bow-Ended stock - I've not built any of the 57' flat-end stock, so I'm not sure about them.

 

While I don't mind soldering in droplights (probably because my rate of building is quite low), I do quite like the half-etched ones. The only problem is that, if you make two of the same diagram, the droplight positions don't change between the coaches (some are etched part-open). I'd actually prefer half-etched with all droplights closed - it is easier to change a closed one to a part open one than the other way around.

 

Adrian