Bachy Class 25 notching

[Gene]

Just recieved my Bachmann DCC Class 25 with sound and am very pleased with it.

I do have some questions though and hope some of you can help me.

 

This is my first UK sound-chipped loco.... all my other sound locos are US outline, P2K,Atlas.

So there are some differences ...my main question is notching..none of my US locos have this feature....the 25 has F5 to notch up and F6 to notch down...but I must admit to being confused...firstly the instructions talk about these functions being trigger as opposed to latched..first time I've heard these expressions..can anyone explain the meanings?

 

More to the point...the actual notching up and down sounds seem to be very delayed in relation to the activation of the F keys....is this just my unit?, is it a fault in the chip?, is it my bad operateing technique? I suspect its my technique but I could use some help. Any body else out there have one of these 25s?

The loco came from Hattons and I'm useing the NCE Powercab system.

All the other functions seem to work very well and the locos actual running characteristics are excellent....its just the notching thats giveing me trouble.

Any help gratefully appreciated.

 

Cheers

Gene

[tinsley-toton]

Hi

 

Trigger is a momentary function, for horns, guards whistle etc.

Latched is a permanent function, for sound, cab lights, fan etc. F5 and F6 need to be latched

My 25s are the same, it takes a few seconds for the sound to get going.

 

hth

 

T-T

[SRman]

I don't have the 25 but I do own the similarly equipped class 24 and 37. As T-T has said, there is a considerable delay between "triggering" the function and getting a response - more so, in my experience, with F6 notching down.

 

Response may also vary according to what DCC controller you have. I use NCE Power Cab / Power Pro and have found that the best response comes with repeatedly toggling F5 or F6 on and off.

[Gene]

Hi

 

Trigger is a momentary function, for horns, guards whistle etc.

Latched is a permanent function, for sound, cab lights, fan etc. F5 and F6 need to be latched

My 25s are the same, it takes a few seconds for the sound to get going.

 

hth

 

T-T

[Gene]

T-T...thanks very much for the info...the instruction sheet definately says that notch-up F5 and notch-down F6 are trigger, as are horns,guards whistle and coupleing clank...lights,sound on/off and airbrake are all latch. So if F5 and F6 are latch...how do i do that? i'm not clear on how latching would work for F5 or F6

 

Gene

[Piemanlarger]

what controller are you using?

[Gene]

what controller are you using?

 

i'm useing the NCE Powercab http://www.ncedcc.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Power_Cab_4a027d6502d41.jpg

[SRman]

NCE Power Cab (and Power Pro) controllers have only one function key that is momentary (ie a trigger), and that is the "Horn" button; all the rest are latching. As I said above, best results come from toggling the function key, so, for instance, press 5, then press it again, repeat a few times, ensuring the last press turns it off again. At some point the engine will start to rev up. repeating the presses of function 5 will notch it up further.

 

In short, as all the keys (bar one0 are latching, you have to do the trigger effect manually by turning them off again.

[Piemanlarger]

NCE Power Cab (and Power Pro) controllers have only one function key that is momentary (ie a trigger), and that is the "Horn" button; all the rest are latching. .

 

Thats interesting and a point that would put me off buying it! Ihave found notching to work much better with trigger. There is a deley on the swd / Bachmann sound locos that is too long when latching, about 2-3 seconds in some cases. The Hornby class 60 is seemingly instant and thus is far more fun to play with!

 

Try holding notch up for about 2-3 seconds and see if you get a change in rpm, then repeat. Same then for notch down.

[mike knowles]

Although I don't have any Bachmann sound fitted locos myself, preferring Howes or SWD chips, my experience of using friends Bachmann sound fitted locos was that the notching was very much delayed in its response and personaaly I found myself not using it.

One point if you use F5 & F6 on latching, be sure that you have definitley disengaged the function when you have finished with it. I spent some time wondering why a loco, after it had been brough to rest, suddenly refused to move off again and eventually noticed that the notch down function had been left engaged so this was overiding the commmand to move off.

[Paul-H]

Hi Guys

 

Bit confused by this ( Yes Easy I Know)

 

I have both the Bachmann Class 24 & 25 with standard sound.

 

With both when I open the Controllers throttle the loco sits still untill the engine reves up, then it moves of, and when I close the throttle the engine reves drop as the loco slows down.

 

Whats with the notching up & down when it does it automaticaly. Or have I missed something. (Probably)

 

Paul

[bmg]

Here is a very good video showing the range of functions available on the 25. It wasn't taken by me.

 

Mid way through you will hear the engine revs rise and then fall back before the loco moves off. This is achieved by the notching up and down functions.

 

 

The 25 is my favorite sound loco and the only one I have not modified. Well done Bachmann.

[Piemanlarger]

 

Whats with the notching up & down when it does it automaticaly. Or have I missed something. (Probably)

 

Paul

 

The advantage of notching is it allows you to controll the sounds a bit more than standard control via speed staps.

 

eg. I have many times seen the class 37 on Rhymney trains, just a 4 coach load so not too much weight. If I re-create this train the Bachmann / Swd cl 37 chips start with a bit of power then the "driver" in the cab backs off power (operator has no control over this pre programed routine) coasts before taking power again if the Dcc controller has been set to a higher speed. Thats fine for a train ciming "down" the line from Rhymney, but when going up even with a 4 coach train the real class 37 driver used to open the growlers up to get going, loads of thrash.

Now the Swd /Bachmann model wont re-create this using the speed steps alone, but it can do it with notching.

Much the same say for a class 60 with 1500 tons of steel behind it (model wise!) The Howes 60 "starts" this train with little power, it does not look right really. The Hornby 60 however allows notching so you ca power the 60 up to get the train moving. Far more realistic to watch.

Thus notching sometime is of use.

[Gene]

Gents...thanks for all the input and advice! I've been using the info I've been offered here and am starting to get the hang of it...now i just need to keep practiseing...oh darn life is so cruel!!

[Gilbert]

I've just got the Cl 25 in green and whatever the downside the sound is super and much fun to run! I agree re F5 & F6 delay on the Powerhouse but I'm working it out.Kadees are fitted and switching/shunting has commenced.

[iploffy]

Erm did i miss something here when the locomotive made all of the sounds it didn't move but then pulled away on tic over a full prep includes compressor speed up engine warm up and no self respecting driver would blow a whistle before pulling off

 

 

[TimP]

I've just got the Cl 25 in green and whatever the downside the sound is super and much fun to run! I agree re F5 & F6 delay on the Powerhouse but I'm working it out.Kadees are fitted and switching/shunting has commenced.

 

 

I am still struggling with kadee droop even after shimming - what have you done to fit them?

 

TimP

[The Black Hat]

I use a Bachmann Dynamis system and there is a delay of a few seconds too before the engine note changes from when it pulls away to applying the power. The notching also is delayed, and often keeps going for a long time well after the engine has moved along my layout of about 10 feet. This also happens with my Bachmann class 37s and explains why I prefer Howes at the moment. Should it be easier for the engine note to change when its being driven then I think it would be better to drive. I dont really need notching on engines, save from when the engine is revved when standing.

 

Do any controllers manage to get Bachmann engines to notch immediately, or is there a simple way of changing the chip settings to that the engine drives much the same way as a Howes chipped engine would? Im not overtly technical with these matters so as a result, pose the question....

[RandyWales]

Hi all..

My method of applying notching on my Bachmann 25 and 37 (Controller = Lenz Set 100) is as follows:

 

Notch up:

Train is standing at the platform, engine idling nicely, ready to depart. (Same applies for open line starts really, but this is to provide a picture in words).

Blow whistle, and hit the F5 Notch Up (don't apply power yet). The compressor blows off and there is some acceleration of the engine, which then settles back to idle for a few seconds. Sound horn. The engine starts accelerating again, and that's when I start to apply power (1 or 2). The train starts moving very slowly. After a second or two, the engine starts accelerating more quickly, so I apply more power (up to 5) in tune with the engine pitch. After about three to four feet, the train is probably running at a scale 30 mph and still accelerating so I then apply power again, in tune with the engine pitch. Sound horn, and disappear into tunnel.

 

 

Notch down:

I'm fortunate in having a long straight of about twenty feet, so the train is usually running at scale 40-50mph on entering the scenic part. Assume we want to stop at a signal at the other end of the straight. I tend to hit F6 around one third of the way along (engine will still run at full throttle). After 2 or 3 seconds, I drop the power by a couple of notches. There's not really any discernable reduction in speed at this time, but it seems the trigger the Notch Down process.

As soon as hear the engine pitch start to drop, I start reducing power by a notch at a time, about a couple of seconds apart. By the time the train is about 3 feet from where I want it to stop, it's coasting at a scale 20mph and the engine pitch drops to idle. Drop controller speed slowly a notch at a time so the train is crawling at about 10mph, but don't cut off power altogether yet. A couple of inches away from the signal, remove all power and the train glides to a stop with automatic brake squeel. Engine idles at standstill.

 

Really authentic and a joy to play with.

 

Alternatively, while the train is coasting up to the signal, switch off F6 and apply F5 again, and reapply power slowly as the engine pitch changes again and it's like having the the inertia of a heavy train, with the engine really having to work to get it going again.

 

In fact, I've been so enthralled by the effect, I haven't really run trains in any different manner other than watching the trains go by.

 

For the limited times I've tried start-stop running (say beyond a point, and then change direction), I think it'll take a little more experimentation.

 

BTW, I have tried to hit the F5 or F6 several times in quick succession to try to trigger the changes when I want them to happen, but there always seems to be a delay of a few seconds.

 

I think that level of response will be for another generation of chips?

 

Randall

[Piemanlarger]

 

BTW, I have tried to hit the F5 or F6 several times in quick succession to try to trigger the changes when I want them to happen, but there always seems to be a delay of a few seconds.

 

I think that level of response will be for another generation of chips?

 

Randall

 

 

I think its the way the chip is programed. The Hornby class 60 seems much more responsive to notching, almost instant.

[The Black Hat]

That mean its more of a south west digital thing then, as arent Bachmann chips done by them?

 

As for notching I find it hard when I have a train standing a top of a five foot fiddle yard to then go onto a 10 foot board for a station stop. Notching over such distances is pretty hard given the obvious delays, hence why I prefer the Howes system of sound as you drive.

[tractor_37260]

Hi all..

My method of applying notching on my Bachmann 25 and 37 (Controller = Lenz Set 100) is as follows:

 

Notch up:

Train is standing at the platform, engine idling nicely, ready to depart. (Same applies for open line starts really, but this is to provide a picture in words).

Blow whistle, and hit the F5 Notch Up (don't apply power yet). The compressor blows off and there is some acceleration of the engine, which then settles back to idle for a few seconds. Sound horn. The engine starts accelerating again, and that's when I start to apply power (1 or 2). The train starts moving very slowly. After a second or two, the engine starts accelerating more quickly, so I apply more power (up to 5) in tune with the engine pitch. After about three to four feet, the train is probably running at a scale 30 mph and still accelerating so I then apply power again, in tune with the engine pitch. Sound horn, and disappear into tunnel.

 

 

Notch down:

I'm fortunate in having a long straight of about twenty feet, so the train is usually running at scale 40-50mph on entering the scenic part. Assume we want to stop at a signal at the other end of the straight. I tend to hit F6 around one third of the way along (engine will still run at full throttle). After 2 or 3 seconds, I drop the power by a couple of notches. There's not really any discernable reduction in speed at this time, but it seems the trigger the Notch Down process.

As soon as hear the engine pitch start to drop, I start reducing power by a notch at a time, about a couple of seconds apart. By the time the train is about 3 feet from where I want it to stop, it's coasting at a scale 20mph and the engine pitch drops to idle. Drop controller speed slowly a notch at a time so the train is crawling at about 10mph, but don't cut off power altogether yet. A couple of inches away from the signal, remove all power and the train glides to a stop with automatic brake squeel. Engine idles at standstill.

 

Really authentic and a joy to play with.

 

Alternatively, while the train is coasting up to the signal, switch off F6 and apply F5 again, and reapply power slowly as the engine pitch changes again and it's like having the the inertia of a heavy train, with the engine really having to work to get it going again.

 

In fact, I've been so enthralled by the effect, I haven't really run trains in any different manner other than watching the trains go by.

 

For the limited times I've tried start-stop running (say beyond a point, and then change direction), I think it'll take a little more experimentation.

 

BTW, I have tried to hit the F5 or F6 several times in quick succession to try to trigger the changes when I want them to happen, but there always seems to be a delay of a few seconds.

 

I think that level of response will be for another generation of chips?

 

Randall

Hi Randall

"Sounds" like you've also grasped the general idea - excuse the pun ! A lot of users seem rather confused about how to get the best out of the notching features. Hopefully the following "blurb" will help some more users get an understading of how to get the best from it. A system that allows the notching keys to be set to trigger (momentary) or latching modes is really necessary. BTW I also use a Lenz system (v3.6)

If you compare the notching features to a car's gearbox - trigger mode gives you a manual shift - up/down control - latched is like automatic mode, once F5 is pressed it goes UP through all the notches to top speed and will stay there until you switch F5 off and switch F6 on when it will come back down through the notches to idle. This can be done WITHOUT opening the throttle - ie the loco not moving. However with the loco idling, on opening the throttle, the loco will not move until you switch-off F6. Also in latched mode if F5 is not switched off, F6 will not work until it is.

However using trigger(momentary) mode will give you a lot more control. Firstly there is a slight delay bewteen pushing the button and anything happening, it's not an instant response. With trigger latching you can increase the sound a notch at a time either up or down and HOLD it there to suit.

The following example is based on a STD Bachmann sound fitted 37. With the loco idling, with F5 & F6 set to trigger action, press and HOLD down F5 for approx 4 secs - or roughly until the air brakes blow off sound dies away - then RELEASE F5 - Don't open the throttle yet, as the loco starts to notch up to the 1st notch, then open the throttle slightly and the loco will move off and the sound will remain on 1st notch. Once moving, press and HOLD down F5 again for a a few seconds then release - the notching will go up to the next level - ("thrash on a Bach 37 chip") and stay there, pressing and HOLDING down F5 once more (few secs) will give fully open - top speed notch. Using the same procedure with F6 the loco will notch back down to idle. However the real bonus with trigger notching is that you can also use F5 & F6 alternately to go up or down ONE notch at a time. For example if your using F5 notch 2 (thrash) you can press F6 and the sound will drop back to notch 1 (fast idle ?) which can simulate "wheel slip" or lack of traction etc etc, press F5 again and it's goes back into "thrash" notch - wonderful

It is also worthwhile experimenting with some CV settings, especially if you only have a short end2end run. With the Bach 37 try setting CV3 inertia to the max = 64 and work backwards (decreasing it) from there until it suits your length of run. It's also worth increasing CV4 (braking) slightly from normal to give a more realistic momentum when stopping - rather than it just stopping dead - a real loco glides to a halt, and the brakes DO NOT squeal continuously from the station approach all the way to to the buffers (as seen on some youtube clips) Only increase the CV4 settings by small amounts, too much and it will DESTROY the buffers before it stops it all depends on the length of run you have to work with.

Hopefully the above may help others to get the best from the notching facility.

 

If you can add any further tips - then go for it !

 

BTW Notching can also be enabled on some SWD chips - but that's another story !

Ken

[Mike-Greg]

I have just got the 25 also

not had much luck with the notching up and down

 

but one thing that hit me straight away was the shut down

it was instant,, engine standing at idle tickover

hit func 1 and instant silence

 

now on my class 20 there is a stoping sequence as the engine is closed down

 

is this a fault with my 25 or they all like this ??

 

mike

[Piemanlarger]

I have just got the 25 also

not had much luck with the notching up and down

 

but one thing that hit me straight away was the shut down

it was instant,, engine standing at idle tickover

hit func 1 and instant silence

 

now on my class 20 there is a stoping sequence as the engine is closed down

 

is this a fault with my 25 or they all like this ??

 

mike

 

 

Probably your fault Mike

 

The sound chips have different "phases" they go through before reaching or being ready for the next. When it comes to shut down, a loco should/needs to have been stopped for X seconds and returned to idle. Try 15 seconds before switching off, then 10, 8 etc till you find how long is needed.

[tractor_37260]

I have just got the 25 also

not had much luck with the notching up and down

 

but one thing that hit me straight away was the shut down

it was instant,, engine standing at idle tickover

hit func 1 and instant silence

 

now on my class 20 there is a stoping sequence as the engine is closed down

 

is this a fault with my 25 or they all like this ??

 

mike

 

Hi Mike

I'll think you'll find this is because the notching functions are still active on the 25. If your using latched function button control, firstly ensure F5 is OFF then set F6 ON and leave it a few moments to reset, it should then go thru the shutdown sequence. If the function buttons are set to "trigger" action - press and hold down F6 until you can hear that the sound is back to idle - if you listen very closely you can also hear a slight glitch, where the sound file is looped at idle. It should then go thru the normal shut down sequence.

The reason this does not happen on your 20 - assuming it's a Bachmann one ? - because there is no notching avail on it ! See my above post for more info on notching etc.

HTH

Ken