Midland Metro Extension

[melmerby]

Hi All

 

I see that work is going on where the Midland Metro extension will cross Great Charles Street on a new viaduct to meet the new trackbed which has been provided alongside the office development next to Snow Hill Station.

 

There was a bridge at this location in the days of the "old" Snow Hill but it was short-sightedly removed many years ago and now needs to be replaced

 

This will enable the Metro to escape it's "temporary" (since opening) platform alongside Snow Hill's heavy rail services, and return the 'stolen' platform back to Network Rail use.

 

Keith

[SNCF stephen]

I am intrigued as to whether they will open the new Metro extension in stages to allow the earlier transfer of Platform 4 back to Network Rail?

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

I am intrigued as to whether they will open the new Metro extension in stages to allow the earlier transfer of Platform 4 back to Network Rail?

 

It should be possible to move out of the station ASAP as the proposed route is in place alongside Snow Hill station up to Colmore Row which was provided during the redevelopment next door.

Whether it will happen however is another matter.

Before it goes any further there is still the matter of sorting out where to move bus routes as Corporation Street, which will have two way trams in it, is currently one way and one of the major bus stopping roads.

 

There is/was? a battle with NXWM about the bus stops. I haven't seen whether it has been resolved - maybe somebody has more up to date information on this.

 

Keith

[Edwin_m]

The new Snow Hill tramstop will be at the Wolverhampton end of the station, with passenger interchange via the new platform access at that end. I don't know for certain whether they are providing turnback facilities but I would guess it is very likely as this is the logical place to terminate trams if there is a problem on the street. If so, it would make sense to start using the new tramstop as soon as it is ready.

[SNCF stephen]

Interestingly there is scope for a second Snow Hill interchange in the extension. I believe that the stop Edwin M mentioned will be called St Chads (although this might change to something like St Chads, Snow Hill Interchange or something like that).

 

The other interchange will have the foundations for a platform provided but will not be constructed as part of the extension unless there is enough developer contribution. I believe this will be at the Birmingham end of Snow Hill and the stop could be called Colmore Row. This is currently the location of the new public space in front of the new development.

 

It is not only Corporation Street that is losing its bus facilities but Bull Street will as well. The original intention was to use a Bus Mall in Eastside but this was quickly abandoned due to safety issues. I am guessing that Colmore Row, Masshouse Circus and some of the other key bus termini will be used as alternatives.

[SNCF stephen]

There is a picture of the progress being made on the bridge here.

[SNCF stephen]

Unfortunately I am not sure where they would put the other traffic that would be displaced by this kind of scheme. I am thinking that when the tram starts going through the city all of the routes will be rationalised so that there are fewer buses entering the city centre but with higher capcity on those that do. It might mean that the showcase bus routes get access to the best stops and the lower order services will be displaced to stops outside the city centre core.

 

If the Metro line were to keep going up the Hagley Road to Bearwood or to the Airport then I think that all of this displacement would be justified. However the short distance it is being extended is not really worthy of all the justification. However it will definitely make the system more visible and hopefully make the next extension a better political bet!

 

 

[dmustu]

I believe that it was always the long term aim to get the trams running up Broard Street to Five Ways and beyond down the Hagly road. Getting the tram through the city center from snowhill to new st. is a start to getting them out down the Hagly road, but given how many years its taken to get the go ahead to run them through the city, I would imagine it will be many years before we see trams running down Broard Street, let alone going further afield!

[Edwin_m]

Plans exist for Metro along Hagley Road to an M5 park and ride, out to the airport, Wednesbury-Brierley Hill, Wednesbury-Walsall-Wolverhampton and a loop round the centre of Wolverhampton. In the absence of any prospect of funding I doubt they are being progressed at the moment.

[melmerby]

Unfortunately I am not sure where they would put the other traffic that would be displaced by this kind of scheme. I am thinking that when the tram starts going through the city all of the routes will be rationalised so that there are fewer buses entering the city centre but with higher capcity on those that do. It might mean that the showcase bus routes get access to the best stops and the lower order services will be displaced to stops outside the city centre core.

 

If the Metro line were to keep going up the Hagley Road to Bearwood or to the Airport then I think that all of this displacement would be justified. However the short distance it is being extended is not really worthy of all the justification. However it will definitely make the system more visible and hopefully make the next extension a better political bet!

 

Many of the bus routes are busier now than they have ever been and there are more of them. It would be difficult to "rationalise" to any great extent. E.G. the NXWM 50 service which I occasionally use and which stops behind M&S in Moor Street has as many as 23 high capacity double deck buses per hour (well filled usually) and can also support competition from Diamond Bus which has now a dedicated fleet of repainted buses (5 I think) running in competition as the "Nifty Fifty". There are also many other very frequent services.

 

Keith

[SNCF stephen]

Plans exist for Metro along Hagley Road to an M5 park and ride, out to the airport, Wednesbury-Brierley Hill, Wednesbury-Walsall-Wolverhampton and a loop round the centre of Wolverhampton. In the absence of any prospect of funding I doubt they are being progressed at the moment.

 

Plans have existed for some time for these routes, but the fact that they are not being built now means that this link, although useful for these future routes, does not have the degree of use that it would do.

 

Also there are plans for the Birmingham SWIFT service which will be a high capcity BRT that is planned to run along these routes in absence of the Metro until the Metro can be fully funded. The SWIFT could assist with any rationalisation that takes place although I do agree with melmerby that the buses are very well used and it would be difficult to sort out any new arrangements.

 

If Centro was given the £1Billion that was wasted on the M25 scheme then it would have been able to fund the Wednesbury to Brierly Hill extension, a full extension to Five Ways and also most if not all of a route to the airport or a continuation of the route down the Hagley Road to Bearwood at least.

[melmerby]

Looking at the current state of Great Charles Street bridge today, which is nearing completion, it can be seen that it is obviously much (two times) wider than the trackbed leading from it up the side of Snow Hill station. Is this where the St Chads platforms will be located?

 

Interestingly the contractors have hacked away at quite a bit of the concrete, exposing the re-enforcing rods, that was laid when that bit of the trackbed was constructed where it meets the new bridge deck.

 

Keith

[SNCF stephen]

St Chads is meant to be near to the new northern entrance to Snow Hill so it would make sense that there is a wider area there to allow the platforms to be constructed. I have several basic plans that all show a stop in that area, however they are not accurate enough to give a definitive answer.

 

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the planning permission to hand but I am sure it would have all of the details for the new stop included.

 

However I do have a copy of the planning permission for the depot expansion at Wednesbury. It is actually quite an interesting expansion and would see the depoit double in size with quite extensiuve new facillities including a whole new set of sidings for the new trams (the sidings are called tram commissioning sidings). I wonder what will happen to the old T69's? Are there any compatable tramways that might want them? I read on Wikipedia that they were very poorly wired and that each one was constructed slightly differently from each other.

[28XX]

I have heard it said that the extension from Snow Hill to New Street, if built may be the most expensive piece of rail infrastructure ever built in the UK in £ per mile.

[Edwin_m]

It is actually quite an interesting expansion and would see the depoit double in size with quite extensiuve new facillities including a whole new set of sidings for the new trams (the sidings are called tram commissioning sidings). I wonder what will happen to the old T69's? Are there any compatable tramways that might want them? I read on Wikipedia that they were very poorly wired and that each one was constructed slightly differently from each other.

 

I haven't seen that but I think I saw a plan of the depot as built with dotted lines for the extra stabling sidings. It's pretty routine to allow this extra space in a tram depot if there is any prospect of the network being expanded.

 

Croydon is potentially in the market for trams, the T69s are roughly the correct profile but would need changes to door steps to reduce the platform gap. However it is likley that some (or even all) of the brand new Edinburgh trams will be up for sale soon as well.

 

Edit: T69 not T68. I've been spending too much time in Manchester.

[PLD]

I wonder what will happen to the old T69's? Are there any compatable tramways that might want them? I read on Wikipedia that they were very poorly wired and that each one was constructed slightly differently from each other.

Widely regarded as the most unreliable trams in Europe. There's nowhere in the UK that would touch them with a bargepole (never mind a trolley pole). Don't fit Manchester's high platforms or signalling systems. Hopelessly underpowered to cope with Sheffields hills. Capacity way too low for Nottingham's extensions or Blackpool. Only chance of a UK buyer is if someone was daft enough to see then as a way of resurecting the Merseyside, Leeds or Bristol scheme on the cheap...

 

Croydon is potentially in the market for trams, the T68s are roughly the correct profile but would need changes to door steps to reduce the platform gap. However it is likley that some (or even all) of the brand new Edinburgh trams will be up for sale soon as well.

Croydon have issued a tender for additional trams, but the T69s aren't electricaly compatible and passenger capacity is too small. Strong rumour is that some of the Edinburgh order will go there 'on loan' initially...

[SNCF stephen]

The T69's are so bad that new parts have had to be made locally in the area to replace some of those originally installed. They were originally intended to have at least one more point of articulation, however funds were not available to see this through. Their capacity has often been misquoted and they are usually so full in the morning rush that it is almost impossible to board a tram at Snow Hill or St Pauls to Snow Hill.

 

I am wondering if a foreign city might invest in them. They may need complete electronic refitting but if they were the correct size then the chassis should have another 20 or 30 years left in them.

 

I am also wondering if they cannot get a decent price for the T69's if they would be either sold for scrap or a small pool of them would be kept as backup? I know the last idea seems very unlikely as the cost of maintaining them would be huge, but the first year or so of the new trams being in full operation may show some teething issues and these could be adequate backup?

 

The current depot has 2 sets of sidings/training tracks and a 4 road depot that links together at the south eastern side of the site. The link at the south eastern side of the site is proposed to loop around towards the north west on waste land and then there will be approximately 5 sidings for new tram commissioning. As well as these sidings there is a proposed building that will be next to these sidings. These sidings would also link into Line 1 at the northwest of the site just south of Wednesbury Parkway.

 

There are also proposals for several new traction current sub stations along the route. One of which will be at the Hawthorns.

[SNCF stephen]

I read in Rail this week that the Government has made £75 Million available for the extension. The article stated they are putting the trams out to tender next month and expect to have made a decision by May. There are now only 19 new trams proposed as opposed to the original figure that was 25. I am wondering if they might keep the best 6 of the original fleet to boost numbers? I cannot imagine (from comments made on here) that many systems would or could want them. Perhaps they could be fully refirbished with new electrical systems to enhance their operating potential. Mind you that would cost a fair bit.

[SNCF stephen]

The BBC reported today that the bridge over Great Charles Street Queensway has now been completed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-12883219

[melmerby]

The BBC reported today that the bridge over Great Charles Street Queensway has now been completed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-12883219

 

Yes.

I have been watching it on a regular basis and it looked pretty near finished a couple of weeks ago.

The widening of the track bed over Great Charles Street (for the platforms?) is very obvious and was why some of the preliminary concrete work done when the new development adjacent to Snow Hill Station was being carried out had to be removed as it was too narrow. Forward planning or what!

 

Keith

[big jim]

slightly o/t but i was working a train from kidderminster this morning, got to the hawthorns and it was unusually busy, bit futher down the line i saw a tram sat in benson rd, another sat in winston green, as i aproached jewellery quater noticed 4 or 5 road railers and all the wires dangling down, must have been a good 1/4 mile of wires down, looked like a right rats nest!!

[SNCF stephen]

slightly o/t but i was working a train from kidderminster this morning, got to the hawthorns and it was unusually busy, bit futher down the line i saw a tram sat in benson rd, another sat in winston green, as i aproached jewellery quater noticed 4 or 5 road railers and all the wires dangling down, must have been a good 1/4 mile of wires down, looked like a right rats nest!!

 

 

I had heard that some kids had thrown a brick through the windscreen of the tram, although what you are describing sounds a lot more serious. The wires came down around Benson road about 3 years ago and caused chaos. There was a shuttle service between West Bromwich and the Hawthorns (because apparently they had to isolate the Handsworth crossover). It meant for some very interesting operations at West Bromwich.

[melmerby]

There are now a selection of pamphlets available from Centro called "connected city" listing all the work that is to be done in Brum between now and when HS2 arrives.

The timetable for Corporation Street and other bus diversions and new bus hubs, road works, 'new' New Street station opening, Trams to Stephenson street etc.

 

Keith

[SNCF stephen]

I had heard that some kids had thrown a brick through the windscreen of the tram, although what you are describing sounds a lot more serious. The wires came down around Benson road about 3 years ago and caused chaos. There was a shuttle service between West Bromwich and the Hawthorns (because apparently they had to isolate the Handsworth crossover). It meant for some very interesting operations at West Bromwich.

 

I travelled on the tram today. Very interesting operations. They are running a single track shuttle service between Soho Benson Road and Snow Hill. There is then a full service between Winson Green and Wolverhampton. Apparently the catenery that has been pulled down is missing a part that is no longer in production. This part is being made locally but with the Easter Holidays it could not be done.

[Edwin_m]

Looks like RAIB are investigating this incident.