NCE LDT and RR&Co

[Hiddle]

Is anyone using the above combination of products successfully?

 

I cannot get RR&Co to recognise occupied blocks, despite following the LDT wiring diagram to the letter.

 

It has been suggested - by someone who wants to sell me ECoS! - that the NCE and LDT systems are incompatible. Does anyone know if this is the case?

 

A very frustrated David

[Edwin_m]

I don't think the NCE supports any form of feedback but you should be able to set up a totally separate s88 system to connect back into the PC via its own interface with no connection to the NCE stuff. Which modules are you using and which wiring diagram are you following?

[Guest Digital]

Not sure if this helps.

I have the LDT RS8 Feedback Module and this works fine with my Lenz system and Railroad & Co

LDT RS8 willaston Road Model Railway

There is an excellent forum on the Railroad&Co website which I am sure will help you.

Railroad&Co

Regards

John

[kbriffa]

David,

 

if you are referring to the LDT RS8 module, it only works for Lenz (R and S are the two feedback outputs of the Lenz command station). You should check with LDT if it will work for other Xpressnet based systems like ECoS and Roco but definitely not for NCE.

 

Kenneth

[Hiddle]

Thanks for your replies.

 

Edwin - I have the LDT USB hub and RM-GB-8 detectors, which I also thought should work as a separate input to NCE. The wiring is exactly as per the LDT recommendations, but nothing appears in the RR&Co window when a train is on the track. The hub is definitely connected to RR&Co and there is output from the detector to the track - what is missing is any form of feedback. I have noticed that the USB hub drivers keep disappearing when the PC is turned on and this is resolved by swapping the NCE connector into the one vacated by the USb and vice versa. This sort of points to some form of conflict betwen the two systems as it occurs in XP and Windows 7. But I'm not a computer techie, so it's beyond me!

 

Maybe I need someone with an LDT hub to test mine in case it is faulty - any offers in the South?

 

I have to say that most of the feedback I have gleaned is that LDT works with Lenz, Markiln and other systems speaking the same "language".

 

LDT are non commital, but I have noticed that their website doesn't mention NCE as a supported product. Maybe I should have read this before buying their Kit !!

 

The sort of good news is that the LDT block detectors will plug directly into the ECoS unit - but there are none in the UK at the moment!

 

Looks like there may be a PowerPro up for sale soon!

 

David

[two tone green]

How many digital systems have you set up for use with RR&Co, there should be two in your case.

 

One for NEC and one for LDT.

 

Then select LDT in the digital system for your feed back system.

[Hiddle]

Thanks TTG. Both systems show as connected, but no joy with feedback from the detectors. I have also swapped the usb ports around - to no avail.

 

BTW I have been reading your thread on RR&Co and a great mist has been lifted! Thanks for your efforts - is there more to come?

[two tone green]

Have you selected LDT as the DCC system for the actual block occupancy detector.

 

I don't use the RGM detectors as I'm currently a Lenz user so I use the RS8's. Looking at RR&Co is offers LDT HSI 88 bus but with the option of left, middle or right bus in the properties box for the block occupancy detectors.

 

Will have to have a read up on the HSI stuff.

[Hiddle]

Yes, I have tried left, right and middle settings for the LDT connection. I reckon I have tried every combination of connections a man can think of!

 

I haven't received any response from a posting a few days ago on the RR&Co Forum, so presumably nobody there has an answer. Nor anything from the NCE Forum either

 

One more go tomorrow, and then I will have to assume that I have hit the buffers with this one, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat (to mix my metaphors!)!

 

David

[BromsMods]

Are you using an AIU between the block detectors and the NCE command station? If not, see https://clarahost.cl...?categoryId=108

 

The AIU is the interface for NCE systems to enable feedback between block detectors and the PowerPro system. It uses standard RJ12 connectors to connect cables between the AIU and the PowerPro cab bus. The problem is that the LDT system uses CAT5 cables. NCE have recently produced a panel interface that allows CAT5 cables to be plugged into the back of the panel and RJ12 plugs in the front. I'm not sure if this will help in your case, though.

 

I have customers who have successfully used Team Digital and NCE block detectors in conjunction with the AIU to interface the PowerPro to Railroad & Co. but nobody (that I'm aware of) who has used the LDT hardware.

[melmerby]

Thanks for your replies.

 

The sort of good news is that the LDT block detectors will plug directly into the ECoS unit - but there are none in the UK at the moment!

 

 

David

 

Buy them direct from LDT (the price works out almost the same - very slightly more actually due to postage & German VAT being a bit higher!) and delivery is pretty smart.

I did that a few weeks ago when I wanted some kits and could not get what I wanted in the UK due to OOS.

 

Keith

[Hiddle]

John - thanks for the advice. The potential problem is buying an AIU and finding that it doesn't help. I haven't had any joy from a question on the NCE Forum, so maybe will try going direct to the manufacturer to see if I can get any clarification.

 

 

Keith - Thanks for the thought, but I meant no ECoS units in the UK - I have seven LDT detectors going nowhere at the moment!

[Nigelcliffe]

Can you put RR&Co to ONLY talking to the LDT interface. Disconnect the NCE connection (hardware and software setting in RR&Co). NCE remains connected to the track for manual driving of trains.

 

Then, manual running of trains on the tracks should trip the LDT block detectors, and in turn, show events in RR&Co. If that is not working, then the problem must be in the LDT system (could be anywhere in it; detectors, software, interface, computer driver files).

 

Only when that is working, try to put the NCE system back into RR&Co to drive trains.

 

 

( I also noted a comment in the LDT manual that both "input" connections to the module must be made from the DCC track bus. This can be from one booster/command station, or from two separate boosters. )

 

 

- Nigel

[two tone green]

RR&Co is driving the trains and the LDT system is providing the feed back. The NCE system does not need to know the feedback status, only RR&Co.

 

You are in a similar situation to ZTC users in that they don't have a feedback system so use the LDT stuff to provide it.

 

Nigel's suggestion is a good idea. Prove that the LDT system is working and hen move on.

 

You do have the correct Com Port set in the digital set up?

You mention that RR&Co is seeing the LDT Hub but have you got the right com port set, etc. Its not set to off line by any chance is it. You can select the systems but unless you say which port its on it wont work.

[Hiddle]

Thanks TTG - the NCE system is connected via an RS232 to USB converter on Com 3, and it works OK

 

The LDT kit connects directly to a USB port, and both systems show as connected, so I seem to have that bit correct.

 

I will give Nigel's suggestion a try - thanks Nigel - but I am now wondering if there is a software problem with the hub.

 

The problem is that whenever the PC is turned on (Windows 7), it fails to find the drivers for the LDT hub, and you have to reinstall them manually each time - obviously that can't be correct - and, yes, I do have the correct drivers installed and I have tried it without the NCE connected.

 

However, once the drivers are manually installed the device is shown as working correctly and can be connected to RR&Co as a USB device. For some reason, before you can install the drivers you have to swap the hub to another USB port before the computer recognises it exists at all.

 

I will report back on the "Nigel test" tomorrow, but if any computer buffs can throw light on the described problem that would be appreciated.

 

David

[two tone green]

Ok, good luck.

[Hiddle]

Well, I have tried the recommended LDT solo test, and I still have no detection. I think I have to assume that the hub is faulty, as I have swapped the detector units and they can't all be dud.

 

I noticed that whilst the hub was successfully loaded by the PC when RR&Co wasn't connected, it still had a tendency for the connection light to suddenly disappear.

 

Thanks to everyone for their interest and helpful comments. I now have to contemplate my next step. It is going to be expensive whichever way I jump!

 

David

[two tone green]

Unless you solve the hardware issues with the computer, the software stands no chance.

 

The LDT HSI 88 bus is used by a lot of people and a bit surprised you have got no response from another user. But this does sound like a PC / HSI 88, interface / driver issue rather than a RR&Co problem.

 

Expensive, why. Others have got it working so why not you. If the parts are under warranty then you should be able to replace them. No need to buy another system at all unless the totally fed up factor kicks in.

 

But as I have said before. RR&Co sees the NCE and LDT stuff as two separate systems and the need to interface NCE to LDT is taken care of by RR&Co. Yes NCE does not work with LDT but RR&Co works with NCE & LDT.

 

So keep going a tad longer and the answer could come soon from a different quarter. Can you confirm the operating system of the PC, Windows what ? XP, Vista, 7 etc. I'll dig a bit and report back.

[Nigelcliffe]

David said "Windows 7" earlier in the thread. There may be a difference between 32 bit and 64 bit in the way security of drivers is handled. Also, driver installation in Windows-7 can be awkward if the software has not paid the necessary "security authorisation" fees to Microsoft.

 

That said, my Windows 7 (32 bit) machine has several bits of "not security authorised" hardware connected by USB, and once the drivers were installed they have worked fine. But, I don't have anything by LDT.

 

 

- Nigel

[Hiddle]

Thanks again for your comments and encouragement - as you guessed, I am pretty frustrated..

 

Yes, the laptop is Windows 7, but LDT have a relevant driver download on their website, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

Anyway, I dismantled the NCE system in the shed at the bottom of the garden, and brought it into the house to try everything with my desktop, which is running XP.

 

Same result - the hub does not show any feedback (no green light flashing, no block triggered in RR&Co), but it does appear connected as USB in RR&Co - essentially the same result as with windows 7.

 

I also replicated the situation where, if the hub is unplugged (properly!) from the PC, and then plugged back in again, Windows says no drivers are installed - but we know they ARE!!. You can't install them from device manager to get the hub going again, because it says there are no drivers installed and worse still says there are none on the CD - but there ARE!! Turn off the PC and reboot and voila, the hub is recognised and said to be working.

 

I will post a plea in the DCC Questions forum to see if I can raise anyone using the LDT HSI 88 hub who is not reading this thread, as I would prefer to see it being tested rather than send it back to Germany - unfortunately, it is out of Warranty as it has been sat ona shelf for a long time pending the day I got around to installing detectors. A simple task I thought!

 

It does seem that I am out on my own with the NCE/LDT combination, which is why I have been contemplating cutting my losses and getting an integrated solution - either NCE/AIU and dispose of the RM GB 8s somehow, or some other approach. The only kit that actually supports the detectors I have, seems to be the new ECoS but frankly it is rather over sophisticated for my needs. Ho Hum, let's see if we can test the hub first though.

 

David

[two tone green]

It must have been on a shelf for a while to be out of warranty. Lesson to be learned I suppose.

 

Still surprised you have not had feed back from any one using the HSI stuff. Perhaps a prompt on the RR&Co forum as its on there I would have thought you would get some help as there are other users on there.

 

It still looks like a driver, hardware issue. Have you tried calling LDT. They do speak English so you should get some joy out of them. Perhaps asking them if they could at least test the unit to see if it is working then you will know if it is the hub or some other issue. May be worth the postage to find this out and possible LDT will then have a sympathetic approach to it if you mention it has been sat on a shelf for a while and perhaps you should have tested it when it arrived.

 

The fact it is doing the same on a XP computer and a windows 7 one does point to a possible hardware failure. But as we all know, drivers are a problem for all versions of Windows, Linux, Mac thingies and other less known operating systems.

 

Sorry I cannot help much more but I will have a dig around online to see if I can find anything.

 

TTG

[two tone green]

David, pop over to the RR&Co forum. Help on its way.

[Hiddle]

Thanks Andy, advice there seems to confirm that there is no connection problem between the HSI 88 USB and the PC.

 

Everything points to a problem within the unit. Unfortunately. appeals for anyone else with the same producton here, and on another forum, have drawn a blank. Can I have the only one in the UK?

 

The obvious solution is to send the kit back to LDT for testing - so I will do that and report back.

 

Regards

 

David

[two tone green]

Still puzzled by your comments about the drivers dropping in and out. They could have been loaded when you ran the test that was suggested on the RR&Co forum.

 

But your right, perhaps a test by LDT would confirm that all is well with the hardware and if yes look elsewhere.

[Hiddle]

Well, the USB has returned from Germany, having got lost in the snow for a week, and I can now detect occupied sections in RR&Co. Large G&T suitably downed!

 

However, I have found that the detector module has to be connected to both tracks, or there is no feedback. If you apply feeds direct from the PowerPro to the track as well, there is no detection. This raises two questions on which feedback would be welcomed:

 

a) To detect an occupied section you only need one set of feeds from the detector to the track. However, some of my sections are quite long, and conventional wisdom says that droppers to the bus should be at multiple points to ensure continuity. So, should I be installing multiple droppers to the detector to achieve this?

 

B) If the PowerPro isn't able to provide power directly to the track, should this be used solely to drive accessories which are detected by the NCE system?

 

I am obviously "nearly there" but any thoughts would be welcomed.

 

Regards

 

David