When did the term 'consist' enter the UK railway vocabulary?

[Oldddudders]

[2. The emphasis on 'CON' in Control was very marked on the Southern, but nobody could ever explain why.

Perhaps it referred to Southern Controls being a bit of a Con? The huge number of trains at any one time meant that it was "Control by exception" for passenger services, in strong contrast to the way I infer other Regions worked. I recall talking to a chap - he was by then just a relief booking clerk - who had clearly worked in the Control at Newcastle and talked about something called "graphing" which I took to be plotting actual performance in real time, based upon live reports from key signalboxes. The nearest we Southern (at least Central) people got to that was recording passing times for freight services over nominated junctions - if the signalman bothered to tell us. The rush hour was a little different, with every passenger train arriving in London 0700-1000 and departing 1600-1900 being reportable at destination.

[250BOB]

I shall continue to call a group of coupled locos one of the following.

 

Double Header, Triple Header etc.,

 

I personally dont want to hear the word "consist", when referring to UK railways.

 

As David White said earlier, the word came to prominence in the DCC instruction books.

 

Lets stick with double header etc etc....

 

At least that way you know how many locos were in the CONSIST.!!!

 

Bob

[The Stationmaster]

I have today established (from a couple of those involved with such things at the time) that the word 'consist' was used on the Western in connection with ATI train information.

[EddieB]

Shirley to a septic, the Consist is what's in the Manifest?

 

As Americanisms go, just about bearable. What I really detest are the borrowed phrases that have become indispensible to "management speak". For instance we may have invented baseball, but we are bombarded with a lexicon of its derivatives: "out of left field", "throwing a curve ball", "making it past first base", "covering all one's bases".

 

Don't get me started on the verbs that have been stretched into nouns (e.g. our old friend "consist") and nouns stretched into verbs again (e.g. "to solution" a problem).

 

/Edit/

 

How about this for a prime example? "Modern Locomotives Illustrated Annual No. 1", CJM writing about passenger operations in California gets all American:

 

For UK rail enthusiasts it is quite amazing how trains, road vehicles and pedestrians share the highway - normally without any confliction.

 

Eh?

 

/Edit/

[Martino]

Shirley to a septic, the Consist is what's in the Manifest?

 

As Americanisms go, just about bearable. What I really detest are the borrowed phrases that have become indispensible to "management speak". For instance we may have invented baseball, but we are bombarded with a lexicon of its derivatives: "out of left field", "throwing a curve ball", "making it past first base", "covering all one's bases".

 

Don't get me started on the verbs that have been stretched into nouns (e.g. our old friend "consist") and nouns stretched into verbs again (e.g. "to solution" a problem).

 

I'm quite happy that the USA goes its own way with American (which in many cases is more like English from 1600/1700's) opposed to English , but I really don't understand is the urge for the English to adopt phrases from another language.

 

Having said that over here (in the US) there has been some discussion recently about the adoption of UK slang by kids here, following the showing of British films and TV shows. Sudden adoption of 'Mate', and more interestingly 'W*nker' and 'B*ll*cks' has disturbed some protectors of American!

 

Funny old world, eh?

[Ceptic]

"Funny old world, eh ?". Indeed , but a true Englishman would have put it thus..."Funny old world, ain'tit ?" .

 

The folks living across the water, South of here, seem even more keen / slavish to add the odd Americanism to their language .

I wonder if the SNCF have adopted the term 'Consist' yet ?. .

 

Catch Ya later (Oops)

 

p.s. If so, Would it be 'Male' or 'Female' ?.

[Pennine MC]

 

Brake vans were TOPS coded CA after the American term caboose

 

Now that's interesting. I'd often suspected that but don't think I've ever had it confirmed - the originally allocated codes were in the RA- series, which would have been more logical

 

 

2. The emphasis on 'CON' in Control was very marked on the Southern, but nobody could ever explain why.

 

That to me sounds like an example of a wider trend, not just within the railway; cant think of any OTTOMH but there are many words where a section of the population emphasises a different syllable to the majority

[The Stationmaster]

Now that's interesting. I'd often suspected that but don't think I've ever had it confirmed - the originally allocated codes were in the RA- series, which would have been more logical

 

 

 

I must have missed that. The original TOPS code for a brakevan was 'CAB' which was a direct import from the Southern Pacific version of TOPS and was used in order to save any unnecessary (!!) alteration of the code as that cost money. I understand the view was taken at the time that a 'more meaningful' easily translatable code for brakevans was considered of very low priority so the original SP code was used.

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

...the urge for the English to adopt phrases from another language.

On the other hand, you could argue that if English didn't adopt phrases from another language, there wouldn't be any English at all. And if a phrase wasn't useful in some way, people wouldn't adopt it.

 

You (Old English)

could (Old English/Germanic)

argue (Old French)

...

English (from the Latin name for people who live in Germany)

phrase (Greek via Latin)

language (Middle English/Old French)

 

and to get back on track,

 

consist (Middle English from Latin) - my big two-volume 3,800 page OED from 1993 doesn't list it as a noun at all, so it hadn't hit their radar yet by then. It's normally pretty good on American vs British English.

[Fat Controller]

"Funny old world, eh ?". Indeed , but a true Englishman would have put it thus..."Funny old world, ain'tit ?" .

 

The folks living across the water, South of here, seem even more keen / slavish to add the odd Americanism to their language .

I wonder if the SNCF have adopted the term 'Consist' yet ?. .

 

Catch Ya later (Oops)

 

p.s. If so, Would it be 'Male' or 'Female' ?.

Still 'fiche de composition du train' when last I heard. The Americanisms seem to be predominately in 'business' and 'management' speak. It would be 'masculine', as words imported from outside almost invariably are.

As an aside, the French slang term for the male sexual organ is feminine, whilst the equivalent female part is masculine.....

[Oldddudders]

The original TOPS code for a brakevan was 'CAB' which was a direct import from the Southern Pacific version of TOPS and was used in order to save any unnecessary (!!) alteration of the code as that cost money. I understand the view was taken at the time that a 'more meaningful' easily translatable code for brakevans was considered of very low priority so the original SP code was used.

I think TOPS was written in a language called TOPSTRAN, which was presumably a dialect within FORTRAN. My Assistant's wife was a programmer, and several grades higher than me at the time!

[Pennine MC]

I must have missed that. The original TOPS code for a brakevan was 'CAB' which was a direct import from the Southern Pacific version of TOPS and was used in order to save any unnecessary (!!) alteration of the code as that cost money. I understand the view was taken at the time that a 'more meaningful' easily translatable code for brakevans was considered of very low priority so the original SP code was used.

 

Yeah, to be fair Mike, I shouldnt have said 'RA' was the original in such definite terms - I'd assume that there must have been thoughts of using it at one time (with R-- being the series for railway operating vehicles like brake tenders) but were superseded by the practical consideration you mention. FWIW I think the list that quotes it is in Geoffrey Freeman Allen's 'Railfreight Today and Tomorrow'

 

I think it was a while ago on the DEMU forum that somebody said some of the code choices might have had a comedian involved, such as VNV - 'N' for 'nana van There was obviously some semi-mnemonic influence, with OL- for 'open, low' and OW- for 'open, wood', but OH- for 'open, high' meaning the steel wagons by default

[The Stationmaster]

 

I think it was a while ago on the DEMU forum that somebody said some of the code choices might have had a comedian involved, such as VNV - 'N' for 'nana van There was obviously some semi-mnemonic influence, with OL- for 'open, low' and OW- for 'open, wood', but OH- for 'open, high' meaning the steel wagons by default

 

 

 

One of those heavily involved in the early days was a long way from being a comedian (although as he could be found at sporting events on ice awarding points he might possibly have had a streak of it somewhere?). By the time of the 1976 overhaul of codes there was definitely at least one person with a decent sense of humour involved (so decent he decided not to give me a job - for which I should eternally thank him) and one of his colleagues was quite a dry wit (he did offer me a job but, perhaps fortunately, Ayatollah Khomeni, got back to Iran before the process BR was involved there in went too far).

 

[Martino]

"Funny old world, eh ?". Indeed , but a true Englishman would have put it thus..."Funny old world, ain'tit ?" .

 

I think from where I came from in England the correct form would be:

 

"Funny ole world init?"

[Martino]

"Funny old world, eh ?". Indeed , but a true Englishman would have put it thus..."Funny old world, ain'tit ?" .

 

I think from where I came from in England the correct form would be:

 

"Funny ole world init?"

[roythebus]

Martino, you must watch too much BBC! Too many repeats!!

 

Funny ol' wewld innit. Depends if yer from saaaaarf London or nawf London mate!

 

As Uncle Ben in Waterloo CONtrol used to say, city o' saaaaaarf London.

[Martino]

Martino, you must watch too much BBC! Too many repeats!!

 

Funny ol' wewld innit. Depends if yer from saaaaarf London or nawf London mate!

 

As Uncle Ben in Waterloo CONtrol used to say, city o' saaaaaarf London.

 

West London - Thames Valley - Slough! So, a mix of evryfink.........

[roythebus]

Estuary English they call it these days. ConSISTS of a mixture of cockney and the worst of the Essex accent!!