"Operation Torbay" is based on Summer 1957 Timetables but

[cary hill]

I have been "studying" the excellent "Operation Torbay" book by W.S.Becket, Xpress Publishing, but as this book is based on Summer 1957 operations, I have a few questions arising, before I use any modeller's licence in connection with a proposed layout "West of the River Dart".

 

The layout will assume some of the Kingswear trains crossed into the South Hams - not a new or original idea - but I would like to keep things prototypical re the coaching stock if possible.

 

 

1. It is apparent that GWR built coaching stock still dominated WR workings in 1957, with BR Mk1s not highly regarded at all due to poor riding qualities, but how quickly did the"mix" become say 50/50? I assume it must have happened fairly quickly, if the vast majority of Collett/Hawksworth coaches were withdrawn by 1965?
2. I assume I don't have any problems re BR Mk1s("Devonian") or LMS Stanier coaches making it the west of the Dart, as in 1957, it appears that around 30 coaches from the LMS/North made it to Kingswear on Summer Saturdays.
3. I believe LNER coaches are out south of Paignton and there is no chance of SR stock appearing at Kingswear, unless it is for a River Dart boat trip excursion.
4. I came across a coach formation in the book - BTK, CK, TK, BTK, which is described as a "M set" - are there other GW standard formations with similar names, other than a "B set" (which I am aware of)?
5. If I stuck with 1957, is it a safe assumption that GWR coach formations would be the usual "mixed bag" of designs and liveries as long as they did the "job"?

Any comments or answers relating to any the above would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

David

 

 

[Kris]

2. No problems with ex LMS stuff in the area.

3. As your proposed line is effectively a loop out of Plymouth you could have an excuse to run SR stock saying it was a diverted service. If you suggested that one of the other Southhams towns had grown you might have a reason for ex LNER stock.

4. There were other fixed formations in the GWR but I can't tell you the sets of the top of my head.

5. Mixed bag is the order of the day, looking at the photos from the era it appears many of the older coaches were still being used on the mainline services. Most liveries would have been blood and custard with some crimson starting to creep in. Brown and white stock would have been only found on certain rakes.

[Adrian Wintle]

I assume I don't have any problems re BR Mk1s("Devonian") or LMS Stanier coaches making it the west of the Dart, as in 1957, it appears that around 30 coaches from the LMS/North made it to Kingswear on Summer Saturdays.

 

Did the LMS stock make it to Kingswear, or did most of it terminate at Paignton and end up in the Goodrington sidings? I certainly have photos* that show a fair amount of Stanier stock in the 100 or so coaches waiting in the Goodrington carriage sidings/Goodington loops/Goodrington goods sidings/Paignton carriage sidings.

 

*There is a set of photos in one of the Great Western Railway Journal articles on Paignton that show every possible place to store a coach filled on a summer saturday (post-war, but I forget the date).

 

Adrian

[Kris]

Did the LMS stock make it to Kingswear, or did most of it terminate at Paignton and end up in the Goodrington sidings? I certainly have photos* that show a fair amount of Stanier stock in the 100 or so coaches waiting in the Goodrington carriage sidings/Goodington loops/Goodrington goods sidings/Paignton carriage sidings.

 

*There is a set of photos in one of the Great Western Railway Journal articles on Paignton that show every possible place to store a coach filled on a summer saturday (post-war, but I forget the date).

 

Adrian

 

The majority stopped at Paignton but some did progress to Kingswear. It appears that these were mostly detached from other trains.

[chrisf]

I would suggest looking at lots of photographs. As good a place as any to begin would be any of the albums by Peter W Gray - "Steam around Devon and Cornwall", "Steam in Devon", "Steam on West of England Main Lines" and "West Country Branch Lines", all published by Ian Allan. Peter Gray was a keen observer of the railway in the 1950s and his notes of the extreme congestion in the West Country on 27th July 1957, when record lateness was accrued, formed the basis of David St John Thomas's book "Summer Saturdays in the West". He is still very much alive and may still work as a booking clerk at Goodrington Sands.

 

As for Mk 1s, it appears from photographs that at first they were sprinkled around the Western in ones and twos. When the decision was taken to reintroduce chocolate and cream in 1956 the Cornish Riviers and Torbay Express were the first named trains to receive stock [June 1956] in the "new" livery, comprising Mk 1s except for the restaurant cars because quantity production of MK 1 catering vehicles had yet to occur. The Torbay Express received new RUs in October 1957 - that is what it says in the Railway Observer anyway. The Cornish Riviera had to wait until 1961 for its new catering vehicles. The Bristolian was also re-equipped in June 1956 except for its restaurant car. This is relevant because the Bristolian set was sent to the West Country on summer Saturdays. Before you ask, the only GW vehicles to receive chocolate and cream in the revival were the Super Saloons used on Ocean Liner boat trains, the three Hawksworth BCKs converted to slip coaches in 1958, the six Collett slip coaches 7069-7074, a whole load of restaurant cars, the two Hawksworth BCKs 7372 and 7377 kept for Royal and VIP work, the VIP saloons 9001-5, the dynamometer car and possibly the whitewash coach.

 

There may be no chance of SR stock appearing at Kingswear but in one of Peter's books there is a shot of an N at Cockwood Harbour heading a green rake forming a return excursion from Goodrington Sands to Bere Alston in 1962.

 

Chris

 

 

[robertcwp]

A better source for the long-distance trains is the through coach programme. I have these for both 1957 and 1958.

 

There was quite a significant change between Summer 1957 and Summer 1958 in that the first production batch of Mark I unclassed restaurants (RU) entered traffic. This led to some adjustments to formations. For example, the Torbay Express had a GWR restaurant car in Summer 1957 but a Mark I RU, with adjacent SO, in 1958.

 

1957: BSK, 3 SK, Diner, 2 FK, SK, BSK - all Mark I except Diner. Attach 3 SK, BCK Saturdays only, on which day rear three vehicles detached at Paignton.

 

1958: BSK, 2 SK, SO, RU, 2 FK, SK, BSK - all Mark I. Attach 3 SK, BCK Saturdays only, on which day rear three vehicles detached at Paignton.

 

In both years, the stock was in chocolate/cream, though this was not identified as such in the 1957 carriage workings. In 1958, such trains were marked "GWR" in the carriage workings.

 

The Devonian (Bradford-Paignton) was LMR stock at the time. It departed Bradford at 9.50 am except Saturdays in 1957 but 10.15 am except Saturdays in 1958. Saturday departure time was 9.05 am both years. Listed as Mark I stock though the diner was in practice LMS design (some photos show a WR Diag 16 RF but I cannot now recall exactly which years this applied to).

 

Formation both years was BSK, 2 SK, SO, Diner, 2 CK, 2 SK, BSK. Plus SK (FSX) and 2 SK (FSO) detached Newton Abbot.

 

The return working departed Paignton 9.15 am, though on Saturdays it started from Kinswear at 8.45 am.

[robertcwp]

The Torbay Express received new RUs in October 1957 - that is what it says in the Railway Observer anyway.

I think the RO is probably accurate as my copy of the carriage workings is annotated with a change from 14/10/57 (itself amended from 7/10/57). A Mark I SO replaced an SK at the same time, with seats 32-21 (facing and back) for dining car reservations. I think this was because the Mark I RU had fewer seats (33) than the GWR composite diner it replaced, so they needed some extra dining seats in an adjacent vehicle. Might also have provided some non-smoking dining accommodation?

 

The Winter Torbay Express became BSK, 2 SK, SO, RU, 2 FK, BSK from October 1957.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Around 1960-62 we used to travel on a summer train which ran from Walsall to Kingswear, and was usually made up of LMS stock. It was used for a Walsall - Birmingham via Sutton Park stopper in the week.

[robertcwp]

Around 1960-62 we used to travel on a summer train which ran from Walsall to Kingswear, and was usually made up of LMS stock. It was used for a Walsall - Birmingham via Sutton Park stopper in the week.

The Summer 1961 workings include a 6.35 am SO Walsall-Kingswear formed of LMR stock: BSK, 3 SK, 2 CK, 3 SK, BSK, 3 SK - rear three vehicles detached at Newton Abbot. Train not to exceed 10 vehicles on Kingswear branch.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Summer 1961 workings include a 6.35 am SO Walsall-Kingswear formed of LMR stock: BSK, 3 SK, 2 CK, 3 SK, BSK, 3 SK - rear three vehicles detached at Newton Abbot. Train not to exceed 10 vehicles on Kingswear branch.

The very one, I think it was 7.30 from New St, although it stopped most stations from Walsall via Sutton Park so we used to catch it at Saltley to avoid the crowd at New St. Occasionally on busy weekends a Leicester - Paignton (poss Kingswear) relief used to run at about the same time, so it went via the Camp Hill line not stopping at New St, but with a water stop at Camp Hill.