the penguin of doom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 For someone not steeped in the nuances of Deltic / DP2 body shape, could you please be a little clearer as to exactly the perceived deficiencies of the Heljan DP2? In particular, I don't understand the "A-post." Many thanks, John Isherwood. Hi John. I'll try and explain what I mean, but it's difficult without the model and a drawing in front of you. Firstly, by "A post", I mean the pillar seperating the front windscreen from the cab side windows, much the same as that on a car. If you can get a drawing of a Deltic front on, follow the curve of the roof from the centre line down the side and you'll see that once the profile becomes vertical, it stays vertical right down the side to the tumblehome at the solebar. On the Heljan version, the profile becomes vertical in about the right place, that is to say about half way down the cab side windows. It then appears to come back in on itself before getting back to the vertical. The shape resembles that of a lightbulb, but much more subtle. It's hard to tell from the pictures here, but in the flesh, to me, it looks very obvious and very strange. Secondly, on the side on photo's of the model in it's red oxide colour, the boiler exhaust port is in the wrong place. This is the port on the left hand end of the roof when looking at the loco with the fan grill to the right. I can't tell if this has been corrected on the painted pre production body, but I suspect not. Hope this is of some help to you. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I can confirm that the boiler flue has been moved but the complex profile on this model has been difficult to establish in some areas and a compromise has been reached in order to get the body out of the mould . This hasn't affected it dimensionally but, as in a lot of models, certain things just cannot be achieved at a realistic price. The level of detail however does make this model stand out over anything that has previously been on offer and a great deal of effort has been put in to making it as near perfect as possible. The comments on this forum have been taken into consideration and acted upon where practically possible. Like many prototypes, DP2 was subjected to various modifications whilst in service and at times it is difficult to know what to and what not to do. The object of the exercise was to ensure that the body moulding was compatible to the two liveries being produced without major changes within the tooling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Wouldn't it be far better to wait until the model comes out before levelling criticism at it, after all the amount of modellers who are capable of grafting Deltic cabs to Silver Fox bodies is miniscule compared to those of us who want a model of DP2 and are very much looking forward to the Heljan model. I really makes me wonder sometimes why manufacterers bother to produce models at all!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
40F Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Wouldn't it be far better to wait until the model comes out before levelling criticism at it, after all the amount of modellers who are capable of grafting Deltic cabs to Silver Fox bodies is miniscule compared to those of us who want a model of DP2 and are very much looking forward to the Heljan model. I really makes me wonder sometimes why manufacterers bother to produce models at all!!!! Well said that man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I agree, as with the Baby Deltic, sometimes it can be said that if you want perfection, here's the plasticard and solvent, here's a scalpel and ruler, good luck! As long as the model captures the essence and appearance of what it represents, I can live with that. Obviously I wouldn't buy a Playcraft D6100 if I wanted a class 21. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
(The) Youth Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Wouldn't it be far better to wait until the model comes out before levelling criticism at it, But surely if the criticism helps to make a better model in the first place by pointing errors before the model goes into production then its better to criticise? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But surely if the criticism helps to make a better model in the first place by pointing errors before the model goes into production then its better to criticise? I was going to make a similar point. I think certain manufactures have to be applauded for making use of forums to gain feedback on pre production models. IMHO the Dapol Western and Class 22 threads are good examples of this. Again just using this thread as an example it seems some earlier criticisms have been noted and addressed. I think most modellers apply a modicum of common sense and realise that certain compromises have to be made by manufacturers in bringing a RTR models to market and take that into consideration before passing comment. After all, isn’t Railway modelling just one big (or should that be little?) compromise? In the same vain as The Youth has commented, surely it is better to get things as near as possible†with the Mk 1 Version??? If that means taking a little constructive criticism, what’s the problem? At the end of the day I think it may be the word criticise that offends. What some may see as criticism I like to look at as evaluation… as long as it’s “constructive evaluationâ€. I think it was Dapol that cancelled a planned DP2 following Heljans announcement with a statement that along the lines of, “we will look again at introducing a DP2 depending on how accurate Heljans offering isâ€. (I could be totally wrong on that point). Well I would much prefer Heljans offerings (And with a little help from their forum friends.) to be as near as, in the first instance, leaving Dapol free to develop another product rather than duplicate. Ooh I think I’ve just had a rant? Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed-farms Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I for one am looking forward to this model coming out. Just hope there is ample space inside for a sound chip and then the prospect of Lion, Falcon, Kestrel, Deltic and DP2 will be together - what a diesel gala that would be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 A bit of “Constructive Evaluation†or maybe not. I think I understand where Sean is coming from with his light bulb analogy. Thing is and I’m looking at this subjectively, this 53A photo seems to show a bit of a reverse curve around the A post but others show it just as Sean describes. I think the white surround exaggerates the illusion of a reverse curve in this instance. http://www.flickr.co...els/3800992562/ One thing that doesn’t look right to me on the Howes Photograph is the perceived width, in profile view, of the A post. Is it too broad if you compare with this photo? http://www.flickr.co...elf/5576987780/ or this: http://www.flickr.co...pes/3449137575/ (I know it’s a 55… but you get my drift…) Or this even: http://www.flickr.co...N03/5164968982/ I realize that width may be there to add strength at a weak point in the moulding but I wonder how that A post will look in white surround livery. Constructively, Porcy (Who is also fully aware that in automotive body design the A post is always the most difficult bit.. It obviously translates to Models as well.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Wouldn't it be far better to wait until the model comes out before levelling criticism at it, after all the amount of modellers who are capable of grafting Deltic cabs to Silver Fox bodies is miniscule compared to those of us who want a model of DP2 and are very much looking forward to the Heljan model. I really makes me wonder sometimes why manufacterers bother to produce models at all!!!! Ian. I am sorry you don't appear to like my critiscism, however, I feel it was consrtuctive. As mentioned above, if faults are bought up at this stage, they well get rectified so that those who cannot graft cabs to bodies get a better all round model. This has been the case with the boiler port as Brush Veteren has posted above. You pays your money, you takes your choice. If the model can be improved before production then I'm all for that and as I've already said, Heljan should be applauded for their innovation. If my constructive criticism is not required, I'll leave it at that and crack on with my grafting. At the risk of this thread becoming like the B1 debate, I'll leave it there and keep my thoughts to myself in future. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 If my constructive criticism is not required, I'll leave it at that and crack on with my grafting. I'll leave it there and keep my thoughts to myself in future. Cheers. Sean. Stick with it Sean... I'm sure there's far more appreciate your contributions, than don't. Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Stick with it Sean... I'm sure there's far more appreciate your contributions, than don't. Porcy Indeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ian. I am sorry you don't appear to like my critiscism, however, I feel it was consrtuctive. As mentioned above, if faults are bought up at this stage, they well get rectified so that those who cannot graft cabs to bodies get a better all round model. This has been the case with the boiler port as Brush Veteren has posted above. You pays your money, you takes your choice. If the model can be improved before production then I'm all for that and as I've already said, Heljan should be applauded for their innovation. If my constructive criticism is not required, I'll leave it at that and crack on with my grafting. At the risk of this thread becoming like the B1 debate, I'll leave it there and keep my thoughts to myself in future. Cheers. Sean. Hi all Apologies if I seem to have opened a can of worms here, but, I get a bit fed up of reading about faults with a model that no one has seen yet and I still think this is going to be the best that is available for the vast majority of modellers who don't have the skills to do anything different. At the end of the day as you said "you pays your money etc" and however perfect we hope the body will be of any model again the majority of modellers will run them on track that equates to a prototype 4ft 1.5. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Apologies if I seem to have opened a can of worms here, but, I get a bit fed up of reading about faults with a model that no one has seen yet and I still think this is going to be the best that is available for the vast majority of modellers who don't have the skills to do anything different. At the end of the day as you said "you pays your money etc" and however perfect we hope the body will be of any model again the majority of modellers will run them on track that equates to a prototype 4ft 1.5. Ian I wouldn't use the gauge argument. That one has been done to death. The number of people who vote with their wallets is often a good indicator of how well received a model is, whether dimensionally accurate or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi all Apologies if I seem to have opened a can of worms here, Ian, I can only speak for myself here. This can of worms has been opened in many threads in the past and will continue to wriggle on many threads to come in the future, I’m sure. What we have to make sure about is that things don’t get heated and we don’t cause offence. We are all entitled to a view and are fortunate to have a good and well regulated forum to air those opinions. but, I get a bit fed up of reading about faults with a model that no one has seen yet and I still think this is going to be the best that is available for the vast majority of modellers who don't have the skills to do anything different. But we have seen it Ian. The comments passed on this thread have been in response to pictures that the manufacturer and retailer has had the courtesy to publish. Admittedly the phots have not been ultra high quality but in most if not all the “comments†that have been passed that I think that has been taken into account. No one has critisised parts of the model we have not seen. Now that we have the internet and this type of forum, manufacturers can tap into feedback and hopefully the end result will mean more accurate models. I draw the analogy with Prototype clinics that major Car manufacturers run were selected members of the public are invited to view and comment on secret prototypes with a view to improving design etc. You made the comment “why do manufactures bother?â€. I’m sure that was tongue in cheek but the answer as we all know is simple. Make a profit. With that in mind manufacturers are well aware in this day and age, an inaccurate/poorly reviewed model will impact on sales and profits so surely it is better to get things right before production begins. I for one would like to see model rail manufacturers engaging forums more for feedback. I’m sure they would be able to sort the wheat from the chaff comments. With Dapol apparently waiting in the wings with DP2 I bet Heljan are trying too get things right. Surely the use of the internet and customer comment can’t be bad thing? And as you put it, “those that don’t have the skills to do anything different†. They get a better model in the first instance. Win Win I think. At the end of the day as you said "you pays your money etc" and however perfect we hope the body will be of any model again the majority of modellers will run them on track that equates to a prototype 4ft 1.5. Ian I think that comment is perfectly answered by post Number 81 in this thread. Porcy (Who’s hoping that this isn’t turning into a, “We’ve never had it so good†thread.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How about the class 22? One substantially critiqued and reworked Cadwork to suit better a majority on the basis of feedback requested by a manufacturer on this forum. The benefits of constructive criticism are clear for all to see, with a model which looks like the prototype down to the rivet and is now in great demand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ian, I can only speak for myself here. This can of worms has been opened in many threads in the past and will continue to wriggle on many threads to come in the future, I’m sure. What we have to make sure about is that things don’t get heated and we don’t cause offence. We are all entitled to a view and are fortunate to have a good and well regulated forum to air those opinions. Hi All A view I heartily agree with 100%, I would be the last to want to cause upset or offence to anyone and would defend anyones right to their own opinion, I have been teetotal all my life because I am a member of the Salvation Army, but, I would defend anyone's right to have a drink should they so wish. Perhaps we should get back to talking about the DP2 which I am still looking forward to buying when it comes out. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Just before we do, to clarify my stance. I fully admit that I can probably get a better model doing it myself. For the record though and to clarify any misunderstanding, if I did not have the skills I'm thankful to be blessed with, I would straight away, get me wallet out and buy me a DP2! The model is a good all round model, but if we can get Heljan to improve on it before the production run, then it will be a cracking model. The comments I made earlier were based on the pre production model which was on the Heljan stand at Warley. Let's not get into the B1 debate and continue to be constructive while awaiting what is in all honesty a long overdue model. Soap box duly stepped down from oil poured on water..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sean's DP2 is the best I've ever seen, in fact since seeing either of his efforts I've not touched mine as it's pants in comparison. I've ordered a Heljan one, if I deciede I don't like it I'll flog it and finish the Silver Fox one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sean's DP2 is the best I've ever seen, in fact since seeing either of his efforts I've not touched mine as it's pants in comparison. I've ordered a Heljan one, if I deciede I don't like it I'll flog it and finish the Silver Fox one. stop it. I'll get big headed. If my next attempt goes well, I may be persuaded to let my current one go. PM me if you're interested...... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Sean, is the "Mk2" DP2 going to have Shawplan noses etc? I can't remember exactly which way you were going to go with it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Sean, is the "Mk2" DP2 going to have Shawplan noses etc? I can't remember exactly which way you were going to go with it! It certainly is Bluex5. I've just made a tentative start on it over on my detailling thread. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thanks Sean, checking it out now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochnagar Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Looking forward to this release. I genuinely hope Heljan haven't copied the 7mm Deltic cab window/profile errors. . having said that, the side on profile is bang on the money. But we'll see when it comes out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
55017 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Received a mail from Hattons today to say release date is March 2012 - April 2012. To be priced at £104, doesn't seem to bad.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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