Porcy Mane Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Hi Porcy. Do you mean the vents should sit deeper within the body or should extend further down the bodyside? Bearing in mind that the photo(s) may be distorted: I think the rad apertures look the wrong shape. Overall they look too square and the corners should be radiused far more, rather than what looks to be very sharp and angular corners on the Heljan image. The apertures need to be more rectangular with the longer edge on the vertical axis. I THINK they're the right dimensions in that, the lower edge should extend to about half way up the upper kick plate of the drivers step if that makes sense? They're actually a lot smaller than those on the 50's I think they look to much like the over square shape that was given on R. S. Carters drawing. I wonder if Heljan used this drawing as a reference? As for the other point you make, I'm just not sure..... I think it may be an optical illusion due to the orange, but I do remember there is a rain channel above the engine room windows which was added really early in the locos life. I can't tell if the Heljan one has this from the photo and it may be that this is causing some visual distortion to you? It appears ok to me though, I'd have to get me ruler out to check it...... I totally agree but it would be a shame to see the model introduced only to confirm an error. As the image stands I think all of the windows and the top of the rad apertures need moving up approx 1 mm toward the air intakes. Another thing I've picked up on is the position of the outlets for the boiler pressure relief valves. It looks like the they are too near the apex of the roof radius? I'm with Pete regarding the tooling. I think what we have seen is what we will now get. I'll be PM'ing you a profile image of DP2 which hopefully illustrates what I'm trying to say far more eloquently. (Sorry I can't post it chaps. © applies.) I guess from reading another of your posts, it will be a while before you read this, so good look for the future, splice the main brace and all that jazz... Cheers. Porcy Ps Apologies if this post looks strange but I'm one of the unfortunates thats having problems with the editor following the recent upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 It's a nice looking model not sure why all the nit picking! After all have a look at the out scale track it will be running on, if everyones so concerned about detail I presume they will ne converting the wheelsets to P4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I agree with you 100%- we should expect more. From my experience, by the time you see a shell from Heljan, it is not going to change. Hopefully they are letting the "experts" see the CAD early enough to make a difference, so there is time to make changes from feedback. The single CAD image on the Howes website was more of a "look where we are", not a "do we have it right?". You may get a polite response to your message saying "what you have seen is a FPS (First Piece Sample) and there are still corrections that has to be made before we start up production." In Heljan speak though, corrections don't typically include changes to new tooling. I like Heljan locomotives. They have their faults, but they are mostly predictable, and Heljan seem to regularly flush out some nice items. I was sincere when I mentioned relocating an exhaust port- an easy fix. I'll be tickled pink if that is the best we can do in terms of finding faults with DP2. And if DP2 is to the same standard as Falcon, Kestrel, and Lion, Dapol would be nuts to repeat the effort. Pete This is the initial tooling FPS that Heljan have displayed. As with Falcon,Kestrel and Lion certain details need to be modified on DP2 before approval of the final tooling and this is now in hand. They are aware of the boiler flue position on the roof. One of the things that have to be taken into account is that manufacturers drawings are not always accurate either as prototypes tend to be modified during the course of their build, and the drawings aren't always updated. The Carter drawings are good for a basic guide but it is always the photographs which provide the real evidence to enable the model to 'evolve' into a good representation. I'm confident that Heljan will do its utmost to ensure that its DP2 is as good as it can be without the real thing to measure! As you say it has to at least be to the same standard as Falcon,Kestrel and Lion......and it will be! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Pete This is the initial tooling FPS that Heljan have displayed. As with Falcon,Kestrel and Lion certain details need to be modified on DP2 before approval of the final tooling and this is now in hand. They are aware of the boiler flue position on the roof. One of the things that have to be taken into account is that manufacturers drawings are not always accurate either as prototypes tend to be modified during the course of their build, and the drawings aren't always updated. The Carter drawings are good for a basic guide but it is always the photographs which provide the real evidence to enable the model to 'evolve' into a good representation. I'm confident that Heljan will do its utmost to ensure that its DP2 is as good as it can be without the real thing to measure! As you say it has to at least be to the same standard as Falcon,Kestrel and Lion......and it will be! I'm sure that with your good self and Brian D overlooking the progress of this model, it will be a goodun', Grahame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This is the initial tooling FPS that Heljan have displayed. As with Falcon,Kestrel and Lion certain details need to be modified on DP2 before approval of the final tooling and this is now in hand. It is reassuring that Heljan are taking the time to get it right and that they have some knowledgeable individuals involved in the process... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Man's Handle Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 It's a nice looking model not sure why all the nit picking! Why not the nitpicking? These threads would be rather boring if everyone just said "Nice loco". After all have a look at the out scale track it will be running on, if everyones so concerned about detail I presume they will ne converting the wheelsets to P4. lol. I have no idea how many people who comment on this loco will be running P4. Your point seems to be that if someone isn't running P4, then they have no place wanting (or even discussing) accurate detail on loco. How far does one take that argument? If you don't have room for prototypical station lengths, then you may as well run Thomas the Tank Engine? There's always the Silver Fox model if someone doesn't want to nitpick about detail. Obviously people want a bit more, and why not? Things will never be completely perfect, but that doesn't mean people can't strive for the best in the areas they can do something about. They are aware of the boiler flue position on the roof. The diameter of this looks way too big to me. Is that also something which might be corrected? Any info on the squared-off corners of the radiator vents? Ade Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 My comment about P4 was just to point out that people tend to get engrossed about dimensions on models and often ignore the obvious narrow gauge look of 16.5mm track. To be honest a good loco on scale track looks totally different. Remember how wound up folks got about the width of the Heljan 47 and ignored the fact the track was 2mm + underwidth, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 My comment about P4 was just to point out that people tend to get engrossed about dimensions on models and often ignore the obvious narrow gauge look of 16.5mm track. That's really not the same issue though is it. It's an accepted compromise given it's an OO model and therefore the gauge is wrong. That doesn't mean you can excuse dimensional errors that do not stem from that compromise because "it's not like it'll ever be accurate you know". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted August 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 22, 2011 lets not have yet another 00 vs P4/EM falling out chaps, the ONLY outcome will be this thread being locked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 . Remember how wound up folks got about the width of the Heljan 47 and ignored the fact the track was 2mm + underwidth, Correct appearance isnt just about simple dimensions in isolation, proportion matters as well - an overwidth loco on underwidth track means that one error just accentuates the other. But as Ian says below, this is getting OT now. lets not have yet another 00 vs P4/EM falling out chaps, Aye. Nor one about 'nitpicking' for that matter, or 'rivet counting', or whatever else. If folk want a model to be as good as it can be, then as Ade says, I dont see why they shouldnt be allowed to try to make it so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Sorry for falling into the oo/p4 trap - to be honest I wish I had never seen the difference between the two it would save a lot of time and hassle! Its my fault for making my own track about 3 years ago - is there an antidote! I do hope DP2 is pretty much perfect, I honestly do count myself lucky Heljan is making them and have 2 on order - love to see a pic one day of DP2 being erected alongside the production Deltics - does anyone know when she was scrapped, some conflicting reports of early 1968 or even as late as 1970 - probably no photos exist of this either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Man's Handle Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 ...does anyone know when she was scrapped, some conflicting reports of early 1968 or even as late as 1970 - probably no photos exist of this either. The accident was in 1967 and the engine went into a 50 at some point not long after (and presumably whatever else was useful found a new home). There is a photo I've seen (maybe on here? I forget where) from 1970 of the body (minus one cab) remaining - I think the consensus is that it was probably cut up completely not long after that photo was taken. Ade Edit: If anyone is interested in that photo, here is the thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28081 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Looking at the nose ends, the new bogies and other details, I wonder how a cut and shut with a Bachmann 55 centre section would look. A Heljan 55 based on bits of this tooling would be nice. Heljan 2013 plans maybe.... oh I wish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 There is a photo I've seen (maybe on here? I forget where) from 1970 of the body (minus one cab) remaining - I think the consensus is that it was probably cut up completely not long after that photo was taken. Ade Edit: If anyone is interested in that photo, here is the thread: http://www.rmweb.co....php?f=7&t=28081 Brian Webb's D&C Locomotive Studies volume on EE locos states cut in 1968, David Clough's Diesel Pioneers (a much more recent book) says 1970, which agrees with Phil's dating of his pic in the linked thread. Clough also mentions that for a short while after the accident, EE were considering repairing the loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickL2008 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Funnily it was me who started that old Thread linked by Ade ... seeing as the Heljan DP2 looks good might have to invest in one, way before my time though, now how to think of an excuse to have one NL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delticfan Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Thanks for the link - that pic is quite unique as I have never seen any pic of DP2 published after it entered Vulcan after the crash let alone after nearly 3 years. The loco does have a little mystique to it. My fathers friend worked at York TMD and recalled it being brought back after the crash with some quite chilling details, maybe it was best cut up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Surely I'm not the first bunny to have noticed the painted pre production DP2 bodyshell on Howes website? http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/admin/products/3W7KsiU1/IMGP4892.JPG Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Very nice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I have to say, I saw the unpainted version at Warley and was rather underwhelmed...... For me, when viewed front on, the loco looked wrong. The windscreen panel appeared too wide, causing the "A post" to bend back in towards the nose panel. Best way I could describe it was that it appeared to look like a mis-shaped light bulb shape. This painted version appears to be the same and I also cannot tell if they've moved the boiler exhaust port as yet. With this in mind, I've cancelled my pre order and decided to have another go at converting the Bachmann Deltic. I still say Heljan should be applauded for producing this model, but for me, it doesn't look right and I'll give it a miss. There may be space for Dapol to recommence their attempt?..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltic21 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm a little unsure as to which way to go with the Heljan model. I had always planned to use the Silver Fox bdoy on a Bachmann chassis, but i the aquired a spare Deltic body, so i have thought of using the Bachmann cabs and the SF body. Decision, Decisions!! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm a little unsure as to which way to go with the Heljan model. I had always planned to use the Silver Fox bdoy on a Bachmann chassis, but i the aquired a spare Deltic body, so i have thought of using the Bachmann cabs and the SF body. Decision, Decisions!! Rob I think that this might be the better option Rob... I'm a little disappointed with what's being offered here... someday someone will get that shape right. And what do you mean that you have "a" spare deltic body... you've several surely . Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I have to say, I saw the unpainted version at Warley and was rather underwhelmed...... For me, when viewed front on, the loco looked wrong. The windscreen panel appeared too wide, causing the "A post" to bend back in towards the nose panel. Best way I could describe it was that it appeared to look like a mis-shaped light bulb shape. This painted version appears to be the same and I also cannot tell if they've moved the boiler exhaust port as yet. With this in mind, I've cancelled my pre order and decided to have another go at converting the Bachmann Deltic. I still say Heljan should be applauded for producing this model, but for me, it doesn't look right and I'll give it a miss. There may be space for Dapol to recommence their attempt?..... Cheers. Sean. For someone not steeped in the nuances of Deltic / DP2 body shape, could you please be a little clearer as to exactly the perceived deficiencies of the Heljan DP2? In particular, I don't understand the "A-post." Many thanks, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm a little unsure as to which way to go with the Heljan model. Maybe it depends how you chip it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Maybe it depends how you chip it. And the wiring might be back to front like the Co-Bo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm a little unsure as to which way to go with the Heljan model. I had always planned to use the Silver Fox bdoy on a Bachmann chassis, but i the aquired a spare Deltic body, so i have thought of using the Bachmann cabs and the SF body. Decision, Decisions!! Rob Have a look over on my thread if you're thinking of going this way Rob. Round about page 8 should be some inspiration. I'm just about to embark on a second attempt too..... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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