mike morley Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Pictures from early stages of my versions production, taken a few months ago, and the Bluebell's Sharpthorn. Don't you just love that lamp bracket on the chimney? I'll take a few more pictures of the model tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 If you are talking about the stock on the right, That is one of the Metropolitan Pullman cars attached to the Rothschild saloon. No, on the left after the station and opposite the goods shed. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Pictures from early stages of my versions production, taken a few months ago, and the Bluebell's Sharpthorn. Don't you just love that lamp bracket on the chimney? I'll take a few more pictures of the model tomorrow. Mike, Thanks so much for the post Much appreciated and most helpful. Have you by any chance got a photo of the brake gear arrangement? All my photo's of Brill No1 are when it at a platform so everything below the footplate is hidden. I don't think Brill No1 had a chimney mounted lamp bracket sadly. I can't quite understand what the problem with the Micromiser gearbox is? I can see that I will need to file back some of the rear spacer. Is it that the firebox isn't tall enough to accept the teeny motor? I did look at using 1/8th" axles but came to the conclusion that there would be too little meat left on the frames after reaming out the holes? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebell Model Railway Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Looks great Was looking at doing a sharpthorn but cause its brass I can't do it sadly, some nice builds though look forward to seeing them progress Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 22, 2011 No, on the left after the station and opposite the goods shed. David If you freeze frame it in the last second of the clip you can see the carriage. You may well be right as there appears to be a wisp of steam or smoke above the roof. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Metropolitan, The brakegear on the model of Brill No1 in Dave Bigcheeseplants picture is correct. The very different brakegear supplied with the kit is a much earlier version and is ideally suited to "Huddersfield" - the K Class Brill No1 replaced. With regard to the Micromiser, I found the motor ended up half in the firebox and half in the cab. You would have to move the firebox backhead back so far you'd make the already cramped cab even worse. I also found the triangular bit on the end of the gearbox was very prominent below the cab floor, as well as fouling the frame spacer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Hi Mike I can see what you mean. Here's my chassis with the Micromiser test fitted: Seems OK but until I have made up the body I won't know. In view of what you have said I will do this next. What I still do not understand is how fitting a Roadrunner makes any difference?? You must have to omit the whole of the solid brass boiler and I can't see how it will clear the backhead any better?? Mind you the chassis is on hold until I decide what to do in any case. I ruined the motor when trying to force the brass worm onto the motor shaft in a vice as per the instructioins.The worm is far far too tight and the shaft bent!! Next time I will ignore the instructions and drill out the hole in the worm and secure it with Loctite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Metropolitan When the Micromiser proved to be a non-starter I spent a long time umming and ahing about which one to use instead and ended up with the Loadhauler Compact Plus. It did need a fair bit filing off it and I still had to move the backhead back slightly (about one and a half mill - nothing like as much as the Micromiser would need) This is why I think the LoLoader would be the better option and would be what I'd use if I was doing it again. A LoLoader with a drive extender would (I think!) make the job easy. I have twice wrecked motors trying to force-fit undersized worms, so you certainly have my sympathy and understanding there. The system has reversed the order I attached the pictures below so the most recent one (taken yesterday) is at the top. The messy soldering came about from sweating an extra, slightly over-width wrapper onto the firebox to take up the 1.5mm gap left by moving the firebox back. I thought that would be easier than removing the old wrapper. I'm still not sure I was right. The mess of solder on the smokebox came about because attaching the saddle tank proved to be quite tricky and still hasn't met with success after several attempts. What it needs is a soldering iron with a very skinny shaft so you can do it from inside. I think that if you used the original brass bar boiler you would have to glue the saddle tank in place - if you tried to solder it the brass bar would absorb so much heat the solder wouldnt melt. The two lower pictures are from a few weeks ago. One of them shows how much I had to file off the shoulders of the gearbox. I also had to file a fair bit off its fore and aft dimension. When I fitted finer pick-up wires I threaded them through the "ears" of the gearbox to keep them in place. This kit has fought me every inch of the way. There is hardly a component on it that I havent had to either replace or modify in some way. You will find you need to walk away and do something else at regular intervals. You will also find it is not a good idea to tackle it late at night. If you make any progress at all you will go to bed feeling so elated sleep is impossible! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 I phoned HighLevel today (he is my Hero although an interpreter is needed! ) and I think I have come up with a solution. I am going to use the Micrimiser gearbox but with a tiny 1012 motor. The motor needs to be mounted on the gearbox flat side to the backplate and I am sure it will fit without modification to the firebox or backplate. The question is whether the motor has enough power to be of any use? However at the extreme gear ratio of 100/1 with these tiny drivers I am hoping all will be well. I am reluctant, Mike, to omit the boiler because it will give the model some traction? I wonder what the original motor and box for which the kit was designed looked like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 As to fitting High Level worm gears to motors I use a 5-sided broach to gently open out the worm bore until its a slight interference fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 As to fitting High Level worm gears to motors I use a 5-sided broach to gently open out the worm bore until its a slight interference fit. Actually, with hindsight, I've a better solution. Simply heat the worm on a gas stove and it slips on like priests...............! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I am reluctant, Mike, to omit the boiler because it will give the model some traction? I wonder what the original motor and box for which the kit was designed looked like? Attached is a picture of the Mashima 1015 I'm using alongside the Sagamai motor Peter K intended the kit to be powered by. I didnt use it because I was assured by someone who has built the Impetus version of the "K" Class, which is designed around the same motor/gear bracket arrangement as the Peter K kit, that it is such a poor motor it is impossible to get a loco running acceptably using it. On the left of the picture is the lead-lined saddle tank. Already it's a lot heavier than the brass bar boiler and there's still plenty of room for more lead. And I know what you mean about Chris Gibbon! He is extremely helpful and gave me a crash-course in annealing at ExpoEM, without which I would not have been able to soften this kit enough to dimple out the rivets Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I've used Mashima 10/15's in my Ruston 48DS builds and they seem fine although my locos rarely do any work (no layout) and are only powered on one axle (through a High Level Slimliner+). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Halfwit - I think you've misunderstood what I meant. It's the Sagami motor that is reputed to be dire, not the Mashima. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Halfwit - I think you've misunderstood what I meant. It's the Sagami motor that is reputed to be dire, not the Mashima. Not at all, I was just confirming that the Mashima is a good runner. Although I did use flywheels on mine which I felt helped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Gotcha! I cut the tail shaft off this particular example when I was still attempting the vertical-motor-in-the-firebox route that Metropolitan is pursuing. Had I not done so, I would be adding a flywheel because there is more than enough room for one in the boiler. Incidentally, I've seen the specification for the 1015 and some of it looks too good to be true - almost as powerful as the 1224 and not much faster revving. Are they really that good or was the tester wearing his rose-tinted spectacles? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Mike, have you seen this thread on motors? It might answer your question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sidecar Racer Posted January 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2011 Incidentally, I've seen the specification for the 1015 and some of it looks too good to be true - almost as powerful as the 1224 and not much faster revving. I have one of the 10 series , not sure if it's a 20 or 24, in a K's Bulldog and it pulls that along very well , I was going to use a 12 series but Chris at High Level recomended the smaller one as a better motor . It drives through one of his gearbox's and seems to be coping with the weight okay . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks for that, Halfwit. Having had a close look at those charts, it's obvious that the figures I've seen quoted for the 1015 actually relate to the 1020. Having said that, for something so tiny the 1015 is still a remarkable motor - as are all of Mashima's offerings. Not too long ago I read that Mr Mashima was intendeing to retire. I hope he leaves his company in safe hands when he does or we're really going to be in trouble! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 I must say how grateful I am, Mike, for your pioneering work with this kit without which I would certainly have blundered to disaster in following the instructions by rote! I've made up the footplate and firebox. Is it me or is the wrapper for the firebox too short? Or is the firebox meant to fit down into the frames? The second motor has arrived and it's a tight squeeze but I still live in hope. I've chamfered off the plastic top a bit on the motor, and fitting it flatways, it looks as though it will just go in. As you say I may need to move the backhead or chop off some of the boiler though? I might cheat and pack the body 0.5mm off the chassis if necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yes! The original firebox wrapper went up one side, over the top but only half way down the other side. Have you tried dimpling any rivets yet? I very quickly realised my kit had been etched from brass too hard to make this possible but that problem might be confined to the batch my particular example came from. If yours does suffer from the same problem you will find than annealing the brass is one of those jobs where you spend an awful lot of time holding your breath. The main problem is that the pieces involved are so small and thin they gain and lose heat so quickly annealing them is quite tricky. (Metropolitan obviously won't need telling this as he's got the kit, but to give everyone else an idea of just how tiny this kit is, the smokebox front is about the same size and shape as your little fingernail!) A variation on that problem that I had when annealing the saddle tank wrapper is that althought it is considerably less than two inches square, that was big enough for it to heat unevenly and it cockled quite badly as a result. And on the subject of heating up bits of brass, have you tried fitting your worm yet? I tried your intended method a couple of years ago on another kit but it lost heat so quickly it shrunk to take hold of the motor shaft with a vice-like grip when I'd only slid it half way on. Attempting to force it the rest of the way resulted in one of the wrecked motors mentioned a few postings ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Indeed I did try annealing the wrappers as per your recommendation Mike as the brass is rock hard. However I began to get distortion. And when I tried to prod out the odd rivet the distortion got worse so I gave up due to my lack of skill!! So I am embarrassed to say that I have adopted the horrible ruse of simply reversing the etchings! This gives, visually, much the same effect especially when ones eyesight begins to deteriorate with age like mine has!! I now need glasses to see the loco itself let alone the rivets!!! However, I am now satisfied with the chassis in that the motor fits into the firebox sideways on (with a bit of jiggery pokery) so I will now complete the chassis. I bottled out of heating the worm and drilled it out and fitted it with superglue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Indeed I did try annealing the wrappers as per your recommendation Mike as the brass is rock hard. However I began to get distortion. And when I tried to prod out the odd rivet the distortion got worse so I gave up due to my lack of skill!! So I am embarrassed to say that I have adopted the horrible ruse of simply reversing the etchings! Might it have been easier to just start with a fresh piece of workable brass cut to the correct size? I know that breaks the "it is supposed to be a kit" principle !! but for such a simple scratch addition, possibly excusable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Might it have been easier to just start with a fresh piece of workable brass cut to the correct size? I know that breaks the "it is supposed to be a kit" principle !! but for such a simple scratch addition, possibly excusable. Hi Kenton. You are probably right! At the moment though I don't think the kit bits look too bad bar a bit of filling? If the rivets get on my nerves I will use strips of Archers Transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike morley Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Metropolitan Congratulations on getting the motor in the firebox! I lost count of how many hours I played around trying to do that before deciding it was a non-starter and taking the alternative route I did. I also think that gear wheel under the cab won't be anything like as prominent when the kit is finished. The guard irons will act as a partial view-blocker and the footsteps will hide even more. I have now got as far as the cab and have found the hardness of the metal makes bending the cab sidesheets a little tricky. They also need to be bent in exactly the right place, and where that place is can be very difficult to pinpoint. Through pure fluke, I got the first one I did right first time but the second one needed three attempts, with the hardness of the metal not helping when it came to straightening out the rejected attempts. My advice would be to use the kit sides for your first attempt, but follow Kenton's suggestion and replace them with more co-operative substitutes if more than one attempt is needed. The eight-inch rodding the instruction reccomend for bending the sidesheet around looks about right, but the etched beading you then have to solder to its top edge is to a much tighter radius! The beading needs filing thinner once its soldered in place and I found I could disguise the discrepancy in radius while doing that, but you cannot eliminate it. One major mistake I made was fitting the bunker before soldering the nut that will secure the body to the chassis. Once the bunker is in place, getting the soldering iron in at the angle needed to do the job is an absolute bar steward! I had to re-do it twice because I clogged up the threads of the nut with solder and I reckon it took me the best part of an hour altogether (mutter, mutter) And, now I've mentioned the bunker, I'll mention a mistake in the instructions. They state that the bunker flares at an angle and does not curve. Wrong! I've looked at every relevant picture of a Manning Wardle I could track down and they all curve. I only realised that when it was too late to do anything about it. Unfortunately, the pictures I've got of Brill Number 1 are either not quite good enough quality, taken from not quite the right angle or similiar and I cannot state as a fact that Brill's did, but I'd be astonished if it was any different to the rest. Thw pictures of Sharpthorn below show the curves of both the bunker flares and the cab sidesheets. Edit to add a PS. I've just realised that one of the pictures of Sharpthorn I posted before (The sideways-on shot, just below the one of the lamp bracket on the chimney) shows the curve in the bunker flare far better than either of the two below. I'm about to start grappling with the lost wax castings. I'll let you know how I get on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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