WR Carriage Roof Destination Boards...

[chrisf]

Rick

 

If you wish to portray Evening Star on the Capitals you will need to be modelling June/July 1960.  Its frolics on the up Dragon and down Capitals are well documented!

 

I'm not entirely sure that the maker of your boards has got it quite right in saying London/Paddington to Cardiff.  In summer 1961 the down train ran to Neyland and Fishguard Harbour, shedding its restaurant car at Swansea where it reversed.  The up train started at Swansea.

 

Forgive the hasty reply but I'm off to Warley soon!

 

Chris

[steve fay]

They did have a cardiff portion as well, the MK1s did carry two boards one with the train name the secon the destination.

CAPITOLS UNITED EXPRESS PADDINGTON CARDIFF

Your triple reporting panel on the the smoke box door would be F55

[chrisf]

Now that I'm back from Warley I've had time to look up the carriage working programme for summer 1961.

 

The Capitals United, 3.55 pm from Paddington, was at that time formed:

Brake second, composite: Paddington to Neyland

First, second, brake second: Paddington to Fishguard Harbour

Second Fridays only, second Saturdays excepted:  Swansea to Carmarthen

Brake second, first, unclassed restaurant, open second, second, brake second: Paddington to Swansea.

 

In his post above Steve may have been thinking of the down Red Dragon [5 55 pm from Paddington] which detached a five coach portion at Cardiff.

 

This is where we need someone knowledgeable but my gut feeling is that the Capitals did not have Paddington - Cardiff boards.  I'm sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear.

 

Chris 

[steve fay]

YesChris your right

Steve

[70021 Morning Star]

Chris and Steve,

Thank you for replying. Not at all worried if the suppliers got the name boards wrong. Just so long as I get them right

[chrisf]

Good morning Rick

 

I put 'unclassed restaurant' because if it had been a kitchen first - as per the Red Dragon - the cwp should have said so.  It says 'diniing car' for the Capitals.  I'm sure I have a note somewhere of which dining car was supposed to be in the Capitals set but it may take a while to find it.

 

In the deep recesses of my memory - and boy are they deep -  I have a vague memory that the WR used to really go to town with roofboards, viz 'Paddington Newport Cardiff and Swansea' though with only 11 feet of board to put that on it could be a problem!  Someone, somewhere will know but if they do they've not come forward yet.

 

That's a great shot of Evening Star.  It looks to be between Ealing Broadway and West Ealing.

 

Chris

[steve fay]

That is a great shot, I'd like a link to that video if possible.

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Chris and Steve,

Indeed, I'm coming to appreciate the depth of Chris' recesses :-)

 

The photograph is a still from "Evening Star and the 9F's" [sic] video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Y74WdUvm0 (origin: Model Rail, Steam Railway Magazines)

 

Meanwhile, I'm still digging for coach board information. One argument for LONDON - CARDIFF is that this train is explicitly named to commemorate the express service linking the two capital cities of England and Wales. So, LONDON - CARDIFF makes sense, while LONDON - SWANSEA or LONDON - CARMARTHEN, or even LONDON - FISHGUARD don't. And, considering the purpose of these boards to direct passengers into the right train (or is that the right carriage?), perhaps CARDIFF makes the most sense.

 

Hmm, thinking aloud here. Where a train is split into different sections, as your earlier email suggested, would the carriages have each has boards denoting where the particular carriage would end up (presumably fitted from its origin depot stock of coach boards)? So we might see [CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS ][LONDON - SWANSEA] and [CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS][LONDON - FISHGUARD] on the same train? As I say, 'thinking out loud', so may be talking complete nonsense :-)

 

You notice I'm also saying LONDON rather than PADDINGTON. Any idea which was the more usual/probable? Both versions are available from the detailing kit suppliers and, having spoken with them, they're not exactly certain (although refreshingly honest on that point). Yes, we need a subject-matter expert! Where is he/she hiding?

 

ATB,

Rick

[Silver Sidelines]

Then some roof boards were very compact - I would have needed my glasses to read them.

 

Ray

[Andy W]

My recollection is that if portions were detached or attached en route, these were indeed boarded for the journey the carriage actually made, rather than the final destination of the train. The whole point was to make sure passengers got into the right portion, just as the window labels were intended to do in later years (assuming anyone actually looked of course).

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks, Ray and Andy,

Yes, Ray, those boards are small, and with a lot of information. That makes sense, if Andy and I have it right : not an advertisement or branding of the express, but practical information for the passengers.

 

Interestingly, this suggests that each coach would have had its destination boards fitted at its 'home depot'. That has the potential for increasing the variety of designs - colours and typefaces - depending upon what was available at a particular coach depot.

 

As a modeller, I believe this affords a wonderful opportunity to differentiate between the various sections of coaches making up my rake. I was going to use differing degrees of weathering to visually highlight sections within the rake; now I'll be able to add differing destination boards to get a really interesting assemblage of rolling stock. 

 

Also, researching the period train spotting records suggests that 10 coaches on the Capitals United Express were common; hence the usual need for a 2nd loco on certain sections; something that Evening Star (which I'm modelling) didn't need.

 

Finally, speaking with those companies that produce the named trains detailing packs - several phone calls today - it seems they've been holding back. Only producing what they think the marker will accept. A good example being the BR(SR) Boat Trains, which had 'green backed' coach boards, totally misaligned with the train's colour scheme. Apparently, after some excellent research resulted in release of green coach boards, the vendor got so many complaints, he had to withdraw them, to be replaced with incorrectly coloured boards. Interesting. I think the fact is that, as Chris suggested, there is much more to this subject than people realise.

 

Please keep your thoughts and information coming.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

Here's a better version of that picture: 9F 92220 Evening Star hauling the F55 CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS

 

 

[chrisf]

This thought prompted by Ray and Andy:

 

Ray Silver Sidelines' picture shows how much lettering you can get on an 11 foot board!  Note that it shows Paddington rather than London and key calling points.  The trains from Paddington to the West Midlands were made up of six coach sets that went all the way plus the dining portion that was added or detached at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury.  I agree entirely with Andy's point and would add that some of today's travellers cannot read customer information to save their lives.  Even with incessant recorded announcements mistakes are made!

 

As for background colours - oh boy.  I think the Western tried to use a cream background on named trains but even before the abolition of chocolate and cream from 1962 there were piebald formations.  I seem to recall that one of the London Midland's Anglo-Scottish expresses ran with tartan roofboards for a while.

 

Chris

[Andy W]

This thought prompted by Ray and Andy:

 

Ray Silver Sidelines' picture shows how much lettering you can get on an 11 foot board!  Note that it shows Paddington rather than London and key calling points.  The trains from Paddington to the West Midlands were made up of six coach sets that went all the way plus the dining portion that was added or detached at Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury.  I agree entirely with Andy's point and would add that some of today's travellers cannot read customer information to save their lives.  Even with incessant recorded announcements mistakes are made!

 

As for background colours - oh boy.  I think the Western tried to use a cream background on named trains but even before the abolition of chocolate and cream from 1962 there were piebald formations.  I seem to recall that one of the London Midland's Anglo-Scottish expresses ran with tartan roofboards for a while.

 

Chris

The board in Ray's photo would need to show Paddington of course since Chester had expresses from/to both Euston and Paddington which used the same station. There would be a similar requirement at Plymouth and Exeter.

On a side issue I'm sure I read somewhere that the destination boards were double-sided so the booked return working was on the other side but the train name boards were blank on the back. On summer Saturdays where the timetables were completely different, and a weekday named train set was used on an un-named working, they reversed the name boards to show the blank side. This way the boards stayed with the stock and didn't accumulate in the wrong place.

[70021 Morning Star]

Alan, from Sankey Scenics, tells me he spent a few days researching name boards at the National Railway Museum, York. He found some Capitals United Express boards, off Mk1 carriages, with [ PADDINGTON - CARDIFF ], not LONDON. This is helpful, artefact-based, confirmation.

 

He also believes that the [ CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS ] might be fitted on any coach, complimented by the various [ PADDINGTON - CARDIFF ] or [ PADDINGTON - DESTINATION ] boards appropriate to each carriage's origin. In addition, Alan reminds us that some coaches would be seen with only one of the pair of boards, while others had none.

 

This is certainly going to add a 'talking point' to my rake of coaches!

 

[70021 Morning Star]

Chris,

You suggested some destinations for various sections of the Capitals United Express, above. What would be your thoughts on how many sections the prototypical weekday express would have had coupled along the route? And what's a likely composition? I understand that 10 coaches were common.

 

Of course, my interest is in Evening Star, June/July 1960. I've been trying to get myself a timetable from the period, but so far have only found the following, from a 1960 Brutish Railways Western Region brochure on their 'named trains'.

 

 

 

[chrisf]

Rick

 

See post #30 above!  That sets out how it was in the summer of 1961.  According to another document of which I have a scan it was the same in summer 1960 but, being concerned with departures from Paddington, it does not tell us what if anything was attached at Swansea.  I can only guess that it was the same as 1961.

 

After 1961 there were changes.  There were substantial recasts to the Western's main line timetable and I have a vague notion that the Capitals United name was applied to a different pair of trains.  If one of these shed a portion at Cardiff this would have meant different roofboards.  Then came the abandonment of chocolate and cream from around Easter 1962, just three months after the Red Dragon finally acquired Mk 1 catering vehicles in place of its GW design pair.

 

That's a fine shot of a Britannia from the 1960 brochure.  The reporting number dates it as 1958-60 when the four character system was introduced and  the down Capitals became [1]F55.

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Rick

 

See post #30 above!  That sets out how it was in the summer of 1961.  According to another document of which I have a scan it was the same in summer 1960 but, being concerned with departures from Paddington, it does not tell us what if anything was attached at Swansea.  I can only guess that it was the same as 1961.

 

After 1961 there were changes.  There were substantial recasts to the Western's main line timetable and I have a vague notion that the Capitals United name was applied to a different pair of trains.  If one of these shed a portion at Cardiff this would have meant different roofboards.  Then came the abandonment of chocolate and cream from around Easter 1962, just three months after the Red Dragon finally acquired Mk 1 catering vehicles in place of its GW design pair.

 

That's a fine shot of a Britannia from the 1960 brochure.  The reporting number dates it as 1958-60 when the four character system was introduced and  the down Capitals became [1]F55.

 

Chris

Although it is a picture of the Up train of course - passing Sonning Sidings on the Up Main Line  (and quite likely taken by Maurice Earley

[chrisf]

Although it is a picture of the Up train of course - passing Sonning Sidings on the Up Main Line  (and quite likely taken by Maurice Earley

Indeed.  I did not have the post-1960 number to hand when I posted but I do now - [1]A13.

 

Chris

[drandles]

The South Wales trains in the 1950s usually carried carriage roof boards of the form:

Paddington and Cardiff

Paddington Newport and Cardiff

Paddington Newport Cardiff and Swansea

Paddington Newport Cardiff Swansea and Carmarthen (eg the Red Dragon)

Paddington Newport Cardiff Swansea and Neyland

Paddington Newport Cardiff Swansea and West Wales

Paddington and Fishguard Harbour (eg the Capitals United Express in some years)

Paddington Tenby and Pembroke Dock (eg the Pembroke Coast Express)

 

On trains with multiple portions (of which there were quite a few) different roof boards were carried on the coaches in each portion.

The West Wales termination was used in later years for some trains which worked to Neyland in one direction but returned from Milford Haven (or vice versa). Some roof boards were reversible and carried a different descriptions on either side. I think this applied to the Capitals United set in the period when it worked to Fishguard in the down direction but started from Swansea in the up direction.

In my recollection, the WR always used Paddington, never London..

 

David

[70021 Morning Star]

Ok, Chris,

I did read your post with great interest (but was hoping I wouldn't have to admit to being too thick to fully understand it :-).

 

The section of route map, given below, comes from that same 1960 named trains brochure, published by BR(Western Region). The Capitals United Express (normal weekdays) is route 11.

 

According to this BR(W) brochure map, the 1960s weekday 15:55 Paddington - Cardiff Capitals United Express terminated at Newport. But the brochure only states the Paddington and Cardiff destinations. You, Chris, listed Neyland (Milford Haven?) and Fishguard Harbour, from your 1961 timetable. I expect the discrepancy is due to the brochure only giving a simplified description of the 1960 destinations. So I bow to your greater knowledge, Master, and ask if you can clarify a few points, please?

• Where, in the stopping order indicated by the map, would the CUE have stopped along this route?
• At which of these stops, according to your information sources, would new formations of coaches been attached - so I have the correct coach boards?
• And, am I understanding you correctly, in reading your earlier post stating that the full rake comprised these 10 coach types (probably in this order):

BSK

CK

FK

SK

BSK

FK

R[F]K

OS

SK

BSK

 

...I'm after getting my rake believably correct (or typical) as well as seeing where the likely formations came from, to make an interesting feature of those Coach Boards without getting shot down for historic inaccuracy. A small ask for a man of your expertise. 

 

Please keep it simple, as all of this is very new to me.

 

Thanks, again, for your generous assistance,

Rick

[chrisf]

You left out a BSK! [see below]  

 

I'm flicking between this page and the entry in the Paddington station working for summer 1961 which in one respect does not quite agree with what I posted earlier.  This does not tell us what was attached en route but does give us the calling points - first stop Badminton, then Newport, Cardiff General, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath, Swansea.  Here the train reverses and leaves with a new loco.

 

Leaving Paddington we have BSK and CK [Neyland], FK, SK, BSK [Fishguard Harbour] and the main train - BSK, FK, RU, SO, SK, BSK.  (Yes, it's an RU.  The Red Dragon had the RFK which was of GW design until it collected W301 in early 1962.  The first RU in the Capitals was W1914 but this was later in the Pembroke Coast Express and was damaged in the Slough derailment in May 1959.)

 

Leaving Swansea, at 8.35 pm, the main train remains attached on Saturdays only [i had not picked this up earlier] as far as Carmarthen where the train also reverses.  On other days an SK is attached [two on Fridays] as far as Carmarthen.  This/these would be of other than BR Mk 1 design as they are specified to have gangway adaptors.  Leaving Carmarthen we have only the Neyland and Fishguard portions.  The train divides at Clarbeston Road.

 

Calling points after Swansea are Llanelly, Carmarthen [reverse], St Clears, Whitland, Clynderwen, Clarbeston Road [train divides].  The two Neyland coaches then call at Haverfordwest, Johnston and Neyland.  The three Fishguard coaches call at Mathry Road, Fishguard & Goodwick and Fishguard Harbour and may well be behind a pannier at this late hour.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Thanks, Chris,

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the formation of Coach Destination Boards would be:

 

F55 LOCOMOTIVE & TENDER - [ PADDINGTON - NEYLAND ] [ PADDINGTON - FISHGUARD HARBOUR ] [ PADDINGTON - CARDIFF* ]

 

*although this section actually terminates at Swansea.

 

Rick

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisf]

Yes, Rick, subject to the Cardiff being changed to Swansea.  I had a bit of a qualm because when the Capitals reached Swansea the main portion would have had to be hauled away by a pilot before what was left could leave for Carmarthen.  This and adding the loco and extra coaches was a lot to do in ten minutes but it's how it is shown in the book.

 

I wonder if you had thought of portraying the balancing working, the up Red Dragon.  This was where 92220 really shone, improving on an admittedly sluggish schedule by up to 15 minutes.  Someone High Up noticed and the frolics were stopped.  Evening Star then returned to its normal job, a Cardiff-Portsmouth as far as Salisbury.  Anyway, if you want me to look up the formation of the Red Dragon it will be no problem but will have to be after the weekend.  I seem to remember that the main train ran from Carmarthen, adding a fresh loco and additional coaches at Cardiff.

 

Chris

[steve fay]

And the above is how my own forthcoming model of 92220 Evening Star will be on my Ranelagh Bridge