WR Carriage Roof Destination Boards...

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Steve and Chris,

Fee fo fi fum, I smell the blood of a Welshman - definitely your territory, Steve :-).

 

Yes, I'm also looking at the Red Dragon, but think the Capitals United Express will be a 'less ordinary' portrayal of Evening Star. Also, I was inspired by that F55 photograph, although the 'down' train does present certain problems in creating a typical coach formation (as it's back to front!). ...by the way, Steve, Fox transfers, have recently introduced a series of very nice metal named train nameplates for fitting to locomotives; much better than the printed ones we usually see. They do several versions for the Red Dragon..

 

Chris hints upon something that has occurred to me. After Cardiff (or Swansea), was this still the Capitals United Express? I'm no expert, but the whole management of Western Region appears to be cost-effective. You don't attach a coach, and expend coal resources, unless it's needed. The attachment and removal of the restaurant car, only hauled when it's needed, being a good example. So, they wouldn't use a mainline locomotive to haul just 5 coaches, 3 to Fishguard Harbour, and 2 to Neyland by mainline named express locomotive, when a local puffer would do. So, we must ask, would these supernumary coaches (attached for reasons of cost efficiency, as they'd, originally, had a common Paddington destination) have carried Capitals United Express  name boards? Logically, it seems unlikely. After all, at Paddington, they would be at the further end of the platform, after the 1st and 2nd coaches of the main formation. Hmmm, only those few passengers for Neyland/Fishguard would walk that far !?

 

These coach name and destination boards certainly raise some interesting questions.

 

I'll attach a map of the region, showing the geographic locations in Wales - for those (like me) who may not be familiar. It shows that, after Seansea, this formation must have been split into two trains, which I can't imagine being assigned to a large locomotive; it wouldn't be cost-effective (see my previous comment).

 

So, I'm thinking that the [ CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS ]  boards would only appear on coaches destined for Cardiff (maybe, Swansea?). After that, just the [ NEYLAND ] and [ FISHGUARD ] boards would suffice. (Think out loud: would these depots have [ PADDINGTON - XXXXXX ] boards, or just the destination name?)

 

This subject raises more and more questions, the more we look at it :-)

 

One other point (off topic), I'm coming to the opinion that much of Evening Star's accolades may be incorrectly attributed. (A problem with the Internet, and non-attributed research, in general, is that erroneous information is propagated.) If you watch the 9Fs video, mentioned above, you hear a 'primary source' statement that, Evening Star did its 90mph run on the Capitals United Express, not the Red Dragon, as is oft reported. Perhaps, because the Red Dragon Express was better known (and, if I understand correctly, might have been the same train, with a different name. What Chris called, 'balancing work'. Hmmm.) 

 

So, pending information to the contrary, my thinking is that a generic model of the F55 'down' Capitals United Express, would have the named express, with appropriate coach boards, plus some supernumary coaches, without Capitals United Express nameboards, at the far end of Paddington's platform, with only local name/destination boards displayed on these Neyland/Fishguard Harbour coaches. My thinking being that the Capitals United Express terminated at Cardiff, and reverted to an unnamed local service. Hence no express name boards, just local destination boards after Cardiff (of, possibly, Swansea). So far, it's certainly the case that these name/destinatiinboards were applied logically.

 

Any bets I've got it completely wrong ?  :-)

 

Rick

[chrisf]

25 to 1!  Full reply after weekend.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Just read an interesting item on David Heys website Britannia section:

 

70021 Morning Star [copyright picture, description]  "... reversed named train headboard indicates the locomotive will take over the down 'Red Dragon' at Cardiff to complete the journey to Carmarthen. High mileage engines that were due for overhaul were utilised west of Cardiff to work trains to Swansea, Pembroke and Fishguard Harbour ..."

 

Slightly off topic, because entirety of this is the Red Dragon named train route, so [ Red Dragon Express ] carriage boards would be appropriate throughout, but interesting in respect of my proposal that things were different after Cardiff. It kind of supports my thinking that the Capitals United Express might have lost its named train status beyond Cardiff, onwards to Neyland and Fishguard Harbour, affecting the carriage name boards used on those coaches. No longer the Capitals United Express.

 

Rick

[chrisf]

I must look at that website but one thing strikes me as being wrong.  If Morning Star takes over the train at Cardiff it will not complete the journey to Carmarthen because the train reverses at Swansea and another loco will be required for the other end of the train.

 

It is an interesting thought that the Capitals ceases to be the Capitals beyond Cardiff or Swansea.  I think not.  It is shown as such in the public timetable and in the working book.  From winter 1961, as I had suspected, the name was transferred to the 8.55 am Paddington - Pembroke Dock and the 11.10 am Milford Haven - Paddington.  I'm guessing that the train remained undivided between Paddington and Swansea.  I think you will find that the main train was known by its title throughout and any portions were called a portion of the Capitals United.  Be thankful that we are not discussing the Atlantic Coast Express! 

 

The pre-September 61 down Capitals remained intact until it reached Swansea.  Portions of it departed behind a lesser loco to Carmarthen and behind yet a third form Carmarthen to Neyland.  A pannier would have sufficed for the section detached at Clarbeston Road for Fishguard.

 

Only Neyland and Fishguard passengers walking to the front of the train at Paddington?  I doubt it.  The station working instructions for Paddington stated that passengers for Bridgend were to be directed to the front coaches.  In addition, despite there being a relief at 3.45 pm, there would be patrons who would rather walk forward to find a seat than stand in the corridor!

 

Turning now to your thoughts of a generic model, what you model is entirely up to you - this is Rule 1.  Your roofboards may say whatever you wish them to say and your train may be composed with a different restaurant car or one less BSK if that is your desire.  If you want them to be accurate, I and [i hope] other forum inmates will do all we can to give you the necessary information.  If you don't, fine.  While we are considering accuracy, be very careful about treating video commentaries as gospel.  Unless the commentator is the man who took the film there is a fighting chance that it will contain errors, of which just two possible sources are the person who wrote the script and the person who delivers it.  

 

I'd like to share a good source with you.  It is John Hodge's book "The South Wales Main Line Part 2 - Severn Tunnel Junction to Newport" published by Wild Swan.  It includes a photograph of the down Capitals taken at Newport on 1st July 1960, headed by Evening Star.  The coaches visible in the photograph, and you must take my word for this since I must not breach copyright by scanning the photograph and posting it here, carry one roofboard.  How we both wish that the boards were legible but we cannot have all we desire.  The caption may be of interest:

 

"No. 92220 frequently found its way on to the up Red Dragon in June 1960, despite its unsuitability for high speed running.  It performed very well and all the link enginemen wanted their turn on it.  Indeed, No. 92220 continued with the 10.0 am Cardiff and 3.55 pm Paddington duty until the locomotive management learned of its use and forbade further rostering, fearing damage at high speeds.  This, however, was not implemented until the head of Canton Loco LDC had had his turn, and on 1st July 1960 Eddie Broom was on the footplate of Evening Star on its return working to Cardiff, where the crew would be changed, though 92220 continued through to Swansea."

 

John Hodge is well qualified to have written this.  In addition to taking the photograph he was employed in the Cardiff divisional office.

 

Finally for now, another photo in the same book shows a roofboard on a coach said to be in the 8.0 am Neyland to Paddington.  It is of GWR design and the boards are therefore longer and wider than the BR variety.  It reads "Paddington Cardiff and Fishguard Harbour".

 

Phew!

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Chris,

You're a star! A genuine photograph of a nameboard with the magical words "Paddington Cardiff and Fishguard Harbour" is superb original evidence!!

 

As for "my version". I've come to the conclusion that the task of researching the Capitals United Express is going to take time. In other words, it'll be a long term project, where I'll need to assemble the correct rolling stock over time. That'll also mean deciding upon which 1960 timetable to use - as you've pointed out, Chris, the day affected the coach formation - and I need to discover on precisely what days Evening Star headed the train. So, yes, my long term objective is historic accuracy, but I may go a little generic until I can build a good enough picture. What you term 'the main' express, may be the starting point.

 

Anyway, I've ordered a 2nd hand copy of the book you mention. Incidentally, as a professional artist & photographer, copyright is something I know a great deal about. You would be ok to copy just part of an image - e.g. that destination board - as this is an academic discussion of that subject. However, I'll contact the author, as that's more polite, and ge may have unpublished images of coachboards he'd be willing to share.)

 

Ok, we've sorted what goes on the destination boards. And, it looks like there may have been only one board per carriage (although, two closely positioned boards may appear as one). But, I remain uncertain as to whether the 1960 formation had Capitals United Express boards along its whole length. Chris has timetable evidence for 1961 onwards, but that 1960 named trains brochure (above) says it only ran [as the Capitals United] to Cardiff (corrected from my previous posting of Swansea). So, I remain undecided, either way. I mean, when the Red Dragon was 'signed' to run to Carmarthen, did it end there, or have coaches for Pembroke Dock, Neyland, or Fishguard Harbour? In that case, (my earlier point) what distinguishes the Capitals United Express from the Red Dragon Express?, or the other named West Coast expresses trains?

[chrisf]

Rick

 

The Dragon was Paddington - Carmarthen and Carmarthen  - Paddington.  It was the first South Wales express to receive a name - 1950*, I think - and was accorded a certain prestige.  One would do lunch on the up working and if 92220 was on the front one might have foregone ones pudding when it arrived early!  The down working had an equally business focused clientele, hence the first class kitchen diner.

 

The unkind would suggest that the Capitals United was named to justify painting even more coaches in chocolate and cream.  The official reason was, of course, to commemorate the designation of Cardiff as the capital of Wales (1955?). 

 

Dates that 92220 worked the up Dragon and down Capitals included Monday 27th June - photo in the Hodge book - and Friday 1st July.  Of the former John Hodge says:

 

"The engine earmarked for the 10.30 am Cardiff - Portsmouth was on standby each day to cover a failure of the locomotive rostered for the 10. 0 am departure (the Red Dragon).  Whether by accident or design, No. 92220 eventually found itself [herself, surely?!] on the 10.0 am earlier in June 1960.  The run was non-stop from Newport to Paddington and the 9F was so much in control that an effort to avoid a very early arrival in Paddington had to be made to enable the luncheon servings to be completed".  To allow 180 minutes for a 145 mile journey was rather generous and normal performance was on the sluggish side.

 

When I get a minute I have somewhere else possibly to find other dates but there were others.  Regular readers will know that quite often I rely on the Railway Observer, the magazine of the Railway Correspondence and Travel Society ,for such gen.  In this instance we are disappointed.  I quote: "It has also been used on the "Red Dragon" and down "Capitals United" but had now been banned form working these trains."  Cover-up, anyone?

 

Now before I go and annoy somebody else, I ought to make a point about generic trains.  Where do you draw the line, I muse.  Knowing which type of coach and how many thereof is one thing and is relatively easy to establish.  Identifying particular vehicles is quite another.  Discuss!

 

Chris

 

* actually first introduced in 1896 and reintroduced circa 1950

[chrisf]

Trains Illustrated for September 1960 states that 92220 also worked the up Dragon/down Capitals on Tuesday 28th June.  The report says that she reached London 5 minutes early on 27th and 28th and recovered 15 minutes' arrears on 1st July.  There is more to be uncovered, surely, as John Hodge implies in what I quoted above that the outing on 27th June was not the first.  On 18th June, according to the September '60 TI, she worked the 7.43 am Cardiff - Paddington which was a relief to the up Capitals.  There must have been more outings than that.  

 

One day that the jaunt probably did not take place was Saturday 2nd July.  On that day there was a SLS railtour from Bridgend.  Enough enthusiasts would have been around South Wales that day for there to be much reporting of 92220 on the Dragon but apparently there is none.  I reckon that the swansong was the trip on 1st July with Driver Broom.  92220 then settled back into her Salisbury diagram [10.30 am Cardiff - Portsmouth as far as Salisbury, 4.17pm Salisbury - Bristol, 10.50 pm Bristol - Cardiff Class C freight].

 

Chris 

[The Stationmaster]

Even more interesting is the tale of how 92220 finished up on its first working to Paddington. The booked engine, a 'Castle' was being prepped when teh Driver noticed that there wasn't a shackle on the tender coupling hook - which wasn't appareently a surprise at Canton as 'shifting shackles' were not unkown when someone prepping an engine that didn't have one pinched one off another engine (well that was the story).  Anyway a certain panel Foreman by the name of Tom Jenkins (who was one of my supervisors in the early 1970s) claims to have said to the Running Formena 'why not give them 92220, it'll be quicker than getting a new shackle?' and so 92220 was duly put on the train.

 

This story - which I had from Tom's own lips - does suggest to me that there was a bit of Canton skullduggery going on and the coupling shackle might well have been removed from the 'Castle' on purpose and that 92220 just happened to be fully prepped at exactly the right moment.  But anyway the 'Castle' was duly failed and off went the 9F in it place - according to Tom.

[70021 Morning Star]

If what I've just read (elsewhere) is correct, 92220 Evening Star was only at the 86C, Cardiff Canton, shed between March 1960 and July 1962. Therefore, as the date when her 'adventures' were curtailed is well documented (albeit I can't recall right now), we have a relatively small window of time needing research. Although Chris says he thinks she must have made more than the few named express runs he's uncovered so far, I guess it's quite possible she made relatively few?

 

Reading of the old timer's love of the 9Fs, and their dislike of the Britannias, I guess it's hardly surprising to hear of some skulduggery re sabotaged engines (although, Mike refers to a Castle, not a Britannia). It must have been quite fun for the footplate crews, and a few local managers, to cock a snoot at senior BR management around 1960.

 

Anyway, mentioning Britannias. I've decided I need to add one to my collection. So, although she was only at Canton from early 1957 to July 1958, I'm sticking with the 'star' theme with 70021 Morning Star. (Yes, I could have chosen one of Evening Star's stablemates, or the preserved Oliver Cromwell, but I prefer not to go with the too obvious choice.) And she can have her own Capitals United and Red Dragon Expresses (good excuse to get some nice blood and custard carriages, and - so you can't accuse me of posting off topic - with a different period of named train and coach destination boards!). 

 

Looking forward, with eager anticipation, to reading what Chris (or others) manage to dig out... (And that book arrives tomorrow!)

 

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

Magnetic Attachment of OO Scale Carriage Boards

 

I've just read a brilliant idea, by someone signing himself H&B Barrett (on the model rail forum). He suggests, using a magnetic strip on the inside of the carriage.

 

Well, you can get those long strip magnets*, used for attaching papers to noticeboards, and thin sheet steel us easily cut with tinsnips or paramedic shears, for the signage. (*for example, Google "first4magnets", to see their interesting range of self-adhesive magnets, which come in various types and sizes, sold by the roll; offering intriguing possibilities!)

 

I think this solves a lot of our modelling problems, especially until we fully resolve what size and wording our coachboards should have. Well done H&B Barrett!

 

Rick

 

UPDATE - I've ordered some magnets and metal strip as product samples. Will get back with a report after testing. - Rick

[chrisf]

If 70021 was at Canton from 1957 to 1958 it would not be a good idea to run blood and custard coaches with her!  Both chocolate and cream (for named trains) and maroon (for other main line trains) were introduced in mid 1956 and the named trains were re-equipped with new or repainted BR Mk 1s in pretty short order.  Having said that, blood and custard took a long time to die out and there was still some about when chocolate and cream was abandoned in 1962.

 

Now the good news.  I have found a photograph which I have PMd to Rascally Bear showing a roofboard lettered 'Paddington, Newport, Cardiff and Swansea',  It is from the Pembroke Coast Express but I have no reason to suppose that any other trains which attached or detached a portion - eg Capitals, Dragon - at Swansea were any different.

 

One more thought for now.   GW design coaches only had brackets for one roofboard on each side.  Although some Mk 1s had two sets it would have meant a departure from practice and tradition to use both.  Other theories are available ...

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

If 70021 was at Canton from 1957 to 1958 it would not be a good idea to run blood and custard coaches with her!  Both chocolate and cream (for named trains) and maroon (for other main line trains) were introduced in mid 1956 and the named trains were re-equipped with new or repainted BR Mk 1s in pretty short order.  Having said that, blood and custard took a long time to die out and there was still some about when chocolate and cream was abandoned in 1962.

 

Now the good news.  I have found a photograph which I have PMd to Rascally Bear showing a roofboard lettered 'Paddington, Newport, Cardiff and Swansea',  It is from the Pembroke Coast Express but I have no reason to suppose that any other trains which attached or detached a portion - eg Capitals, Dragon - at Swansea were any different.

 

One more thought for now.   GW design coaches only had brackets for one roofboard on each side.  Although some Mk 1s had two sets it would have meant a departure from practice and tradition to use both.  Other theories are available ...

 

Chris

But would GWR size boards fit BR size brackets?

[chrisf]

But would GWR size boards fit BR size brackets?

 

No.  GWR boards were wide and 18 feet long, BR narrow and 11 feet long.

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

No.  GWR boards were wide and 18 feet long, BR narrow and 11 feet long.

 

Chris

Thanks Chris - I was sure they were different but I didn't know the dimensions.

[70021 Morning Star]

Of course, GWR Brown & Cream. (Oops. If I'd kept my mouth shut, you mightn't have realized I'm stupid !)

 

So, in June-July 1960, am I correct in using BR Mk1 coaches?  

 

And for January 1957 - July 1958, do I need  GWR designed coaches. (Presumably there's a thread describing what OO-scale model GWR Coaches are available, somewhere on rmweb?)

 

Chris suggests, even in 1960, the GWR tradition of only using one board per coach is likely. Ok, the few photographs I've seen would support this. But, as we now have definitive evidence of both [ CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS ], at the National Railway Museum, and [ PADDINGTON NEWPORT CARDIFF SWANSEA ] boards, from Chris's photographic research, I'm wondering how these might have been distributed along the train, and what might have appeared on those Neyland and Fishguard Harbour carriages?

 

At least the magnets will allow me to keep moving things around, as we (well, Chris) make further discoveries. I think I'm going to need them.

 

Thanks, all,

Rick

[chrisf]

The only GWR design coaches to receive BR chocolate and cream [as opposed to GWR chocolate and cream] were:

 

quite a lot of restaurant cars, there being no BR standard ones until 1958/59;

 

slip coaches;

 

Super Saloons used for Ocean Liner specials and some VIP work;

 

two Hawksworth BCKs, 7372 and 7377 which are both preserved and which were kept for Royal and VIP work;

 

a few saloons in the 900x series also used for VIP work;

 

inspection saloons; 

 

one Hawksworth auto trailer when it passed into departmental stock; 

 

the old dynamometer car W7W and the new one converted in 1961 from a Hawksworth corridor third.

 

I'm sure Robertcwp will put me right if I have forgotten any.

 

So from mid 1956, apart from the above, only BR MK 1s received chocolate and cream livery for use in named trains.  Inevitably there were times when trains were strengthened with whatever vehicles were available and much merry fun may be had looking at photos.  Gresleys were OK to couple with the Pullman gangways of MK 1s but if GW or LMS coaches were used they needed gangway adaptors.

 

There are threads about available or non-available GW coaches.  Good hunting ...

 

Chris  

[steve fay]

South Wales expresses frequently had a Gresley Coach as a strengthener.

[70021 Morning Star]

MAGNETIC ATTACHMENT OF COACH BOARDS - PART 2

 

Magnets and self-adhesive plastic coated steel strip arrived this morning. So, I've done a few quick tests...

 

The magnets measure about 20x6x3mm, so sit nicely above the windows on these old Mainline BR Mk1 coaches. In fact, it was only when I was fitting the magnet that I noticed Mainline have modelled the brackets for attaching coach boards; see the little bumps below my board. These are actually a problem, as they're forcing the board upwards, so it overlaps the guttering (forgotten the proper term), whereas they should lay flat, underneath the gutter. I'm thinking you'd want to make little cut-outs in the boards, to accommodate these 'brackets'; this would also ensure that the boards staged in the exact correct place - as magnetic attachment might otherwise result in some movement during operations.

 

Speaking of 'movement', it is essential to decide whether you're modelling side-mounted or roof-mounted boards before fitting the magnet. If the magnet is in the roof, then it'll pull the board up onto the roof. Similarly, a side-mounted magnet will always drag the coach board down onto the side of the carriage. Also, be aware that the model carriage's compartment separators restrict possible positions for the magnets, unless you're prepared to make a cut-out. 

 

These magnets are incredibly powerful. You need to be Mr Universe to separate an individual magnet from the other nine that come in the pack. These will definitely be strong enough to allay any concerns of coach boards dropping off during railway operations. Indeed, I'm thinking I could probably cut these magnets into two, three, maybe four, smaller magnets.

 

The big problem was the ferrous metal strip. Cutting it was a nightmare. These boards are only 2.5mm deep, and a craft knife wouldn't touch the metal. In the end I resorted to a cutting disk on a Modelcraft minidrill. Not ideal, and you can see I beggered up the bottom edge, but that's not a concern, as it's only a test of the magnets.

 

I'm very pleased with the results. We need to source pre-cut ferrous strip in depths of 3, 2.5, and 2 mm, corresponding to the oo-scale depths of the various boards. Anyone any ideas ?

 

Well, onto the pictures:

  

Ok, I'm a professional artist and photographer, so don't expect good pictures (cobbler's shoes and all that !).

 

The first picture shows the difficulty I had cutting the metal strip. You can see the magnet peeking out, underneath.

Second picture illustrates how small are these powerful magnets. It's that silvery bar above the flush-glaze window.

And, finally, the destination board affixed above the Mainline coach's moulding of the attachment hooks (those three bumps).

The [ LONDON - SWANSEA ] stickers are probably incorrect; from a Red Dragon pack, so of no real interest ;-)

 

Again, my thanks to M. Bennett for the idea.

 

Rick 

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Folks,

I've gone quiet, because I'm watching hours-and-hours of very grainy, mostly blurred with age, period films. (You've heard of 'train spotting', even the much rarer 'coach spotter', well, I've become a 'coach board spotter', and that's a very select group of anorak ;-)

 

Some very interesting patterns are emerging. It is essential to watch film footage, as stills photographs lose any context of the formation, its direction of travel ('up' or ldown'), and were misleading me.

 

Anyway, I'll post some results soon. These will include pointers to Internet-accessible period footage that's worth viewing.

 

(Meanwhile, just as an aside, you'll be delighted to hear that the British Film Institution's film archive department has a very interestingly entitled B&W film, period 1960, entitled "The Capitals United Express". It is a record of steam 'named train' activity around Canton! You can imagine my excitement: I though I'd struck the mother load!!! Naturally, I've submitted a request for a copy or, at least, a viewing. The BFI's response - after weeks of giving me the run-around - could have come from a Monty Python sketch. They said, this is the MASTER. There exist no other copies. As such, no one is allowed to view it. For financial and copyright reasons, no copies can be made. We just store, love, and protect it, taking great care that no one ever screens or views it, as that could damage the film stock. That's our mission; to preserve a visual archive of our heritage, irrespective of the fact that no one will ever be permitted to see it. Not now, not ever. [Err, folks, did I just lose my faculties; isn't the point of film to be viewed? Do they know something we don't?] No plans for future availability, they just "Keep" the stuff. Like it's a religious relic, too precious to ever see the light of day. But we may all be reassured that it's 'there', in safe-keeping. ---   To be fair, (and I'm serious here, no joking) they did offer to send me a 'written description' of the content of this visual treasure that we'll never be permitted to see! It's totally insane.)

 

More soon,

Rick

[70021 Morning Star]

92220 EVENING STAR's 5 DAYS of GLORY - CAPITALS UNITED and RED DRAGON (Paddington) EXPRESS RUNS !

 

It was questioned, earlier, precisely how many of the Paddington Express runs 92220 actually hauled. Reading John Hodge's book, I see that the following dates say it all:

• 27th June, 1960 - Evening Star got her first opportunity on the 10.00 'up' Red Dragon, returning with the 3.55  p.m. 'down' Capitals United.
• John writes, "No.92220 continued with the 10.0 a.m. Cardiff and 3.55 p.m. Paddington duty until the locomotive management learnt of its use, and forbade further rostering"; an order which wasn't implemented until Canton's head of Loco LDC, Eddie Broom, had had his turn on the footplate (see below).
• 1st July, 1960 - Evening Star hauled it's last Paddington Express, the F55 'down' 3.55 p.m. Capitals United Express to Swansea.

So, we're looking at a timeframe of just 5 days !

 

It's implied that 92220 hauled the 10.0 'up' Red Dragon and 3.55 'down' Capitals United Expresses on the 28th, 29th, and 30th June, 1960. Does anyone have any resources to positively verify this? (My hunch is that this very special Lined Green 9F began to be 'rostered', rather than being 'on standby', for these prestigious passenger express services, and that's when concerns about locomotive suitability would be raised. We're no longer looking at occasional runs to cover a defective Britannia; and Evening Star had too high a public profile to be seen to fail on these prestige London services.)

 

Additionally, it appears 92220 Evening Star, and other 9Fs, were regularly rostered on Saturday Express services (including Paddington?), many Passenger Specials, and other Passenger Express services of the BR Western Region, before and beyond this period. (Details and verification needed.)

 

Armed with the above information, we now have (at least) two precise dates upon which to model either the 10.0 a.m. 'up' Red Dragon, or the 3.55 p.m. 'down' Capitals United Express. If someone can determine the precise coach formations for these dates/services, we'll have a good idea of the requisite Coach Boards needed to represent them.

 

Rick

[chrisf]

At the risk of repeating myself, look again at post #30 for the down Capitals formation.  The Dragon was a different set and I am prepared to look it up later if you wish.  If by "precise" you want actual vehicle numbers - I wish!

 

According to the latest Steam World, which includes a pic of 92220 on the Portsmouth - Cardiff train that was part of her regular job, there are references to her frolics in a book by G Freeman Allen "The Riddles Standard Types in Traffic" [Allen & Unwin, 1982].  Subject to what that says, and I don't know, there is a shot by John Hodge in his book of her on the up Dragon on 28th June but, so far, no substantiation that she performed on 29th and 30th so we are down to three possible dates.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

Hello Chris,

Your post #30 is in my notebook. Very useful information and, definitely, not forgotten. In fact, all of the data you've provided has been copied down, and set in order, as part of my planning how to model the appropriate formation of coaches. ...and, yes please, a similar listing for the Red Dragon formation would be of great interest.

 

[Laughing] Me thinks that Chris thought I wasn't paying proper attention. What he doesn't know is that I have a whole file on his words of wisdom !

 

Anyway, I'm hoping we can compile a list of Passenger Express rakes that could go behind 92220 (and 70021), together with dates when she pulled them. Also, I was interested to read John Hodge's Comment (in The South Wales Main Line, Part One CARDIFF) that 92220 was treated as something of a star (no pun intended), in that, "The working of No.92220, while based at Canton, had to be closely controlled to ensure that she returned home regularly for cleaning and maintenance in view of the special workings and exhibitions for which the engine was required."

 

My study of coach boards is ongoing. Hopefully, I'll soon be in a position to publish some thoughts on this thread, and show how I've interpreted these in my model of 92220 on the 'down' F55, with Chris' researched rake and, of course, those coach destination boards.

 

Rick

[chrisf]

The up Red Dragon, as requested.  Note that I do not have access to the summer 1960 cwp so this info comes from summer 1961.

 

From Swansea (originating at Carmarthen and reversing at Swansea): BG, 3 x SK, FK, BG

 

Attached rear at Cardiff, Mondays to Fridays:  CK, BCK off the 8.15 am Swansea - Cardiff [because the Dragon ran non-stop from Swansea to Cardiff, therefore not serving Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend].  On Saturdays these coaches were attached to the Carmarthen portion because they ran through to Carmarthen on Friday nights instead of being detached with the Swansea portion.

 

Attached rear at Cardiff, Mondays to Saturdays: RSO, RF, FK, SK, BCK.  Until the beginning of 1962 the catering vehicles were ex-GW design.  Whether this is because no BR standards were available or because the crews preferred them is a moot point but it is a fact that the introduction of BR chocolate and cream predated the influx of the BR RU and RB by a significant margin.  

 

At the risk of digressing [again], the WR did have some early MK 1 catering vehicles comprising two full kitchen cars flanked by an open first and open second and five restaurant firsts accompanied by open seconds.  None of these combos saw much use.  What the WR really wanted was the unclassed restaurant [RU] so had to make do with GW vehicles until they arrived.

 

Chris

[70021 Morning Star]

UPDATE to post #72 -- " 92220 EVENING STAR's 5 DAYS of GLORY "
 
Richard Woodley, in The Days of the Holiday Express, page 69, states in a picture caption that, "Driver Eddie Broome was Chairman of the Canton LDC and he insisted on being allowed his trip to London driving Evening Star. No 92220 was therefore turned out on the 'Red Dragon' for the third and last time... 1 July 1960." 
 
So, we now know that Evening Star was only permitted to haul the 'up' Red Dragon (and 'down' Capitals United) on three occasions: 27th & 28th* June, and 1st July, 1960, before the BR management ban was enforced.
 
*Same source, "I saw No 92220 come romping through Swindon on Tuesday 28 June with the 3.55pm down 'Capitals United Express'...", from which (as Chris points out, below) we may deduce 92220 must have been on that morning's 'up' Red Dragon for her to have been available (Paddington) to take the afternoon's 'down' Capitals United back to Swansea. 
 
[ I'm now going to read the rest of the book, to see what I can glean on WR Carriage Roof Destination Boards. As this is arguably 'off topic', albeit essential to my getting the correct info for the coach formation on which I'll place the destination boards, I'll edit this posting with further findings rather than posting new messages on this subject. So, WATCH THIS SPACE for further updates. ]
 
Rick

[chrisf]

The run in between was 28th June as you have stated!

 

Chris