Fulgurex motor/point travel

[Emmo]

I am using the method of point control suggested in the instructions that come with Fulgurex motors, using a brass wire bent at right angles to the point which operates a fulcrum through a small piece of brass tube. Even with 3mm points (hand made) the brass rod does not travel enough to throw the blade completely over to the stock rail. My gut instinct was that the movement created by the motor would have been too much if anything, far from there not being enough! Anyone have any pointers on this?

 

Please, although you mean well, I don't want any answers relating to "Tortoise" and how I should have used them instead, or the fact they are better. It's personal preference and budget at the end of the day and I have committed to purchasing the Fulgurex, just need a solution to my problem, thanks.

[Miss Prism]

There is about 8.5mm movement at the Fulgurex motor itself, but it is suprising how much of that can be lost between the motor and the destination turnout if using thin wire, sloppy cranks, and inadequate guides for the wire. I read the Fulgurex instructions, but they were gobbledegook to me. Have a look here.

[sixteen 12by 10s]

Hallo

 

 

 

 

I adapted mine by soldering the tube to two brass screws in the underside of the baseboard, and then passing the wire through a slot directly under the tie bar, See the photo. I had absolutely no joy with the method advised in the instructions.

 

 

 

 

Gary

 

[Pacific231G]

I am using the method of point control suggested in the instructions that come with Fulgurex motors, using a brass wire bent at right angles to the point which operates a fulcrum through a small piece of brass tube. Even with 3mm points (hand made) the brass rod does not travel enough to throw the blade completely over to the stock rail. My gut instinct was that the movement created by the motor would have been too much if anything, far from there not being enough! Anyone have any pointers on this?

 

Please, although you mean well, I don't want any answers relating to "Tortoise" and how I should have used them instead, or the fact they are better. It's personal preference and budget at the end of the day and I have committed to purchasing the Fulgurex, just need a solution to my problem, thanks.

 

I've had exactly the same problem with Fulgurex motors on an HOm (12mm gauge) layout using Tillig points. Because the switch rails on these are not hinged you are bending the metal (just like on most prototype points) and I figured that the forces generated by a solenoid motor would soon cause the tiebar to fail so opted for a slow speed motor. I thought Fulgurex was a "Rolls Royce" make so bought six for the layout and also used their suggested control method and I've come to the conclusion that this is where the problem lies. There's simply too much lost motion and it involves turning a reciprocating motion into rotation and back again in a way that is frankly an engineering nonsense because the ends of the wire arms move in an arc and the motion of both the tie bar and the point motor is linear. I should of course have figured that out but trusted the instructions. I tried changing the ratio of the two arms of the bent wire to lengthen the throw but the wire just bent more. I think the answer is to use a more direct linear drive and if necessary include an Omega or Z in the linkage and if I used them again would use something like Gary's solution which looks simple and elegant (and well worth trying. Thanks Gary)

 

The other problem I came up against was that the set up of the switches built into the Fulgurex motor combined with the forces it was handling meant that sometimes the motor stopped before the auxiliary microswitch used to feed the crossing (frog) had completely switched and that was causing a short in the track current- the answer to that was to use both auxiliary switches (one each end of the travel) as on/off switches so that the crossing would be dead while the points were travelling. I was able to get the setup to work with a bit of fiddling but wouldn't use Fulgurex motors that way again. To be fair, before I motorised the points the Tillig points were also defeating sprung Caboose Industry point levers and I think the shorter length of the switch blades on a 12mm gauge point simply makes the force needed to throw them the same distance greater than on a 16.5mm gauge point.

 

Davd

[Emmo]

My thanks to you guys. I like Gary's method which I may use - a long job to do all motors on the layout but if it achieves reliable running well worth it. I am also interested Davd (or is it David?) in your advice to use both auxiliary switches for the frog polarity. Could you explain in more detail please as to how the wiring goes for this - or is it just a belt and braces device being exactly the same as the one switch I am using for the job at the moment?

 

Martin

[Miss Prism]

It's important to let any point actuator complete its proper movement, and Fulgurexes are no different.

 

 

Martin - use one of the two sets of auxiliary switch contacts on the Fulgurex to switch your crossing polarity:

 

 

The other auxiliary set can be used for indicators etc.

 

More Fulgurex wiring information can be found here.

[Mallard60022]

It's important to let any point actuator complete its proper movement, and Fulgurexes are no different.

 

fulgurex-linkage.png

 

Martin - use one of the two sets of auxiliary switch contacts on the Fulgurex to switch your crossing polarity:

 

turnout-wiring.gif

 

The other auxiliary set can be used for indicators etc.

 

More Fulgurex wiring information can be found here.

Long time ago however.....am I reading this as the frog wired directly to the aux contact? I know it's simple but so am I!

Thanks

Phil

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.....am I reading this as the frog wired directly to the aux contact?

 Use one of the aux contact sets, the moving part of the contact set is wired to frog, the two contacts one to each rail supply, so the frog is powered by one, or the other. The advice on the CLAG page by Russ Elliot was my guide to best exploiting these machines.

 

Personally I think this is the best motor on the market, if economy is the criterion. As it is double ended two points in crossover formation that always move as a pair can be driven by one motor usually located under the crossings and this brings the price per point down to no more than a solenoid clonker. The trade off is engineering the transmission yourself. Miss Prism's illustration in post 6 shows a typical method.

 

My top tip (not original): build point networks on a lift out piece of ply. The whole lot can then be worked on from both sides on the bench and thoroughly tested before installation on the layout. Having seen this in my late teens at a club, I have always done it that way ever since; and until we get plug and play points with actuators and decoders built in, will continue to do so.

[Isambard Kingdom Brunel]

I use fulgerex point motors to move the blades on my P4 layout.

.9mm droppers are soldered to bottom of blade, these fit into tubes mounted onto a piece of PCB under the base board.

The fulgerex motor is mounted nearby and moves the pcb as in Miss Prism picture above. The auxiliary switched change the polarity of the frog.

They can be used to operate both points in a crossover

I use fulgerex point motors to move the blades on my P4 layout.

.9mm droppers are soldered to bottom of blade, these fit into tubes mounted onto a piece of PCB under the base board.

The fulgerex motor is mounted nearby and moves the pcb as in Miss Prism picture above. The auxiliary switched change the polarity of the frog.

They can be used to operate both points in a crossover

[reddo]

Just a small addendum to all the good posts above. Having somewhat masochistic tendencies, I also like Fulgurex motors (I also have a mix of solenoids incl Peco, Hornby, Roco, Fleischmann) and Cobalt, which brings in additional fun (not) in which DCC decoders will do the respective job.

 

I have an SMP Scaleway 36" radius point (copper clad) I built and am now installing using a Fx motor due to a) the baseboard frame being directly under the tie bar and b) its such a fine build it needs a sympathetic motor. So the reason I ended up here is how to wire the point which I can see from the v useful pic above and also the accessory terminals on FX.

 

One observation I can make on the movement, is the design method does work but it needs the recommended 19-20mm distance on the rod from the motor drive bar to the pivot point and it needs to be installed initially with both the switchblades and the motor drive bar at dead centre so each swing sees the full movement. NB! there are also 2x holes in each end of the motor drive bar which allows options on the full swing radius.

 

On installation, I did not cut the brass rod; I bent the first 20mm (and 5mm return) at right angles on the bench then fed it up through the pivot tube. The motor was installed on a ~30mm deep piece polystyrene packing (cut to the plan dims of the FX motor plate) and installed with screws which reduces the sound transmission a little (I am still trying to find another solution - glue?). At this point, remove the rod from the motor bar and lift it up high above the board which allows you to then go topside and bend the rod at 90 deg toward the tie bar hole and bend the final 3-4mm of rod into the tie bar hole - one needs a really good square pair of long-nosed pliers. They all worked on my Peco Finescale turnouts but the noise got to me and I was sold on the Cobalts (lower height than the Tortoise) but TBH not such a noise reduction as I was expecting.

 

The BIG advantage of the FX motors is they can be positioned to a side of the location of the point tiebar which really helps, if like me, you have a track/baseboard conflict

 

For control, having invested in ECoS 50200 and ESU Switchpilots, I have identified that the SP Extension units are the solution to providing the required relay signal to the FX motors; these plug into the side of the standard SwitchPilots and as I have now several FX motors spare, I will look at using them to drive some of my Ratio signals in a prototypical slo-mo action (hopefully)

 

Apologies for the rambling and hope the above is of interest/help for anyone else landing on this thread.

Cheers

 

PS - I damaged one of the brass rods and after emailing FX, a lovely lady in Switzerland send me 2x spare free of charge

 

PPS - If buying old units on Ebay, beware of models marked Pacific Fast Mail underneath in the black molding; these are old units for the US market and have issues, as advised by FX Switzerland

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by reddo

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2009 at 20:46, Miss Prism said:

There is about 8.5mm movement at the Fulgurex motor itself, but it is surprising how much of that can be lost between the motor and the destination turnout if using thin wire, sloppy cranks, and inadequate guides for the wire. I read the Fulgurex instructions, but they were gobbledegook to me.

It is the weirdest thing, a good motor at a good price, let down by dire advice on use. Use your own drive rod and crank arrangements to limit lost motion for which there is good advice already posted, and it will happily drive two RTL OO points laid as a crossover pair, thanks to its handy double ended design, for a hefty saving over all 'solo' point motors. Neither do you have to run it at 12V, 4V or thereabouts is plenty, and so much quieter, with slow motion.

 

Ideally suited to those in the first part of Nevil Shute Norway's epithet:

"An engineer is a man person who can do for five bob what any bloody fool can do for a quid". ('Trustee from the Toolroom', the only novel I know of with a model engineer as protagonist.)

[DLT]

12 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It is the weirdest thing, a good motor at a good price, let down by dire advice on use. Use your own drive rod and crank arrangements to limit lost motion for which there is good advice already posted, and it will happily drive two RTL OO points laid as a crossover pair, thanks to its handy double ended design, for a hefty saving over all 'solo' point motors. Neither do you have to run it at 12V, 4V or thereabouts is plenty, and so much quieter, with slow motion.

 

Ideally suited to those in the first part of Nevil Shute Norway's epithet:

"An engineer is a man person who can do for five bob what any bloody fool can do for a quid". ('Trustee from the Toolroom', the only novel I know of with a model engineer as protagonist.)

 

That's is how I've got a long crossover setup, all linear from each end of the Fulgurex.  The only rotational bits are cranks that are moving the linear motion through 90degrees.  I have Omega loops to take up the over-travel, and provide a springy force to hold the points over.

 

PS  I've read a few Nevil Shutes, but not come across that one

Edited June 11, 2020 by DLT

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

30 minutes ago, DLT said:

,,,  I've read a few Nevil Shutes, but not come across that one

In the same class as In the Wet, An Old Captivity, No Highway, Round the Bend, Slide Rule, A Town like Alice.