Gas boilers

[Southernman46]

Hi Gents,

 

I'm after a bit of advice regarding boiler installation. I'm planning to replace our existing regular boiler with a Worcester Combi-boiler located in the loft. This will remove the tank & gubbins in the airing cupboard and (more importantly for me) the cold water tanks in the loft.

 

My Q is -

 

Am I permitted to the undertake the installation work myself (being a competent plumber and electrician) and then have the boiler commissioned by someone with the relevant certification ?

 

Thanks,

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Gents,

 

I'm after a bit of advice regarding boiler installation. I'm planning to replace our existing regular boiler with a Worcester Combi-boiler located in the loft. This will remove the tank & gubbins in the airing cupboard and (more importantly for me) the cold water tanks in the loft.

 

My Q is -

 

Am I permitted to the undertake the installation work myself (being a competent plumber and electrician) and then have the boiler commissioned by someone with the relevant certification ?

Tony

You are definitely not allowed to touch domestic electrics unless you have the right paperwork with your name on it (I shall not explain how you can get round that little problem but there is a way although it involves waiting several years) and you are not allowed to touch gas connections unless you are properly trained and qualified.

 

(but all this talk of 'qualification' and 'competence' came home to me last week in brilliant illustration - Jewson's agency supplied delivery driver clearly had no more idea of how to operate the vehicle's crane than my cat has, in a matter of a few minutes he managed to displace the cement bags on the pallet which also took a chunk out of a pavior and nearly hit my gates following which he unloaded a bulk bag of ballast in the wrong place. Jewson's local manager said subsequently - in response to my moans - 'but he's got all the relevant paperwork and qualifications'; which only goes to prove that if someone is qualified that doesn't mean they are competent. I'm fully insured as competent to do various things to meet the requirements of ROGS, but I'm not formally qualified even in a couple of areas of expertise where a formal qualification exists. The various safety regulations applying to some areas of safety critical work etc are very heavy on 'qualification' but sometimes not so clever on 'competence')

[Belsay Lad]

I must admit that I thought that anyone was allowed to replace/repair an existing electrical installation (ie light switches/sockets) in their own home but that there were strict rules regarding adding new circuits etc?

 

However, gas is a totally different game and, quite rightly, anyone dealing with that has to be 'Gas Safe' qualified, although as has already been pointed out in this thread 'qualified' and 'competent' are two totally words and concepts.

[Belsay Lad]

pe

The new building regs require the condensate to drain to a foul drain system (such as minsters waste pipe) as it is a by product of burning gas it has quite a few "nasties" in it and I think is quite acidic.

 

Minster it may be worth asking the plumber if he can bend the flue system around the layout, by the sounds of it you may have enough pipe length/distance to play with.

 

Sorry just an extra observation as regards the bit I have emphasied in bold:- (as an amateur in the field)

 

My old (as in 20/25year old) CH boiler gave up the will to live in November last year, just at the start of the Siberian snow/ice that hit Scotland for the best part of two months! As it was in the attic and the vent went through the roof my tame Plumbing/Heating company weren't able to replace it until mid January as until then there was around 18inches of snow and ice on the roof. They replaced the old vent with a new one without any problem, apart from breaking a roof tile and not telling me! Fortunately I spotted it pdq after they left and got my equally good builder/roofer to replace it and was able to claim his costs back! So far the roof has held during the monsoons that have passed as a Scottish summer.

 

However, they were not able to drain the condensate from the boiler into my existing guttering/rain water system as this was cast iron and the condensate would 'rot it'. Also due to the arrangement of the house it was not possible to break into the internal bathroom/kithcen drainage without a major upheval and re-decoration. So I now have an external soak away complete with lime stone which evidently neutralises the effect on the soil. I am waiting to see what happens to the boiler this Winter when the temperature falls to 'Baltic' or below!

 

So if you wanted to utilise the heat from the condensate maybe a 'heat exchanger' set up would be the best bet - place the soak away under your green-house whatever so that any heat from it will percolate upwards but avoid any direct usage of the resultant water?

[Southernman46]

You are definitely not allowed to touch domestic electrics unless you have the right paperwork with your name on it

 

and you are not allowed to touch gas connections unless you are properly trained and qualified.

 

 

I am a qualified electrical engineer - but not qualified in the IEEE regs etc...

 

and despite having done gas work before - it's easy if you know what you're doing as I suspected it's going to cost us an arm and a leg to get some guy with the right bits of paper to do it. (I could just do it anyway and not tell anyone).

 

Years of dealing with COSS's and handsignallers on the railway who have the right ticket on their Sentinel card but are still fecking useless has demonstrated the void between qualified and competent to me.....

[skipepsi]

My trade tests included very high pressure/high temperature steam but you can bet your bottom dollar that any insurance company would say where is the certificate then refuse to pay.Find a british gas fitter who does guvvy jobs get him to do it and find someone to sign it off for you would be my suggestion.

[The Stationmaster]

I am a qualified electrical engineer - but not qualified in the IEEE regs etc...

The son of a pal of mine spends his live working on high voltage industrial electrical installations and served a full trade apprenticeship (when such things existed) with on of the then electricity supply companies but he cannot legally even wire in a spur socket in his own home.

[chris p bacon]

.Find a british gas fitter who does guvvy jobs get him to do it and find someone to sign it off for you would be my suggestion.

 

Or simply find someone with the correct certification you are happy with, let him do the job and sign it off.

 

I have yet to meet a tradesman who will write a certificate for work he has not done and that someone else was paid to do, but would not register to have his work inspected.

 

I now only build new houses and can say that when you come to sell you will need certification for works carried out, so those that have a boiler fitted and can produce the paperwork there is not a problem, but for those that for whatever reason do it themselves or by black market, when the house is surveyed and it is picked up that it is a new boiler and they cannot provide paperwork it says to the purchaser that the owner wasn't bothered about doing things correctly.

 

The son of a pal of mine spends his live working on high voltage industrial electrical installations and served a full trade apprenticeship (when such things existed) with on of the then electricity supply companies but he cannot legally even wire in a spur socket in his own home.

 

In the same way that an "ordinary" sparky cannot work on high voltage.

 

You are allowed to carry out some works within your house yourself, but not in "wet" rooms and for some appliances (?) as ever check with building regs.

[Southernman46]

Thanks for the "inside" view Chris - it's hard to accept the fact that although I know I can undertake the work prefectly well - I simply can't - I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a man in

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

[chris p bacon]

Thanks for the "inside" view Chris - it's hard to accept the fact that although I know I can undertake the work prefectly well - I simply can't - I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get a man in

 

Kind regards,

 

Tony

 

Find a plumber/gas fitter you are happy with and explain that you are capable of fitting it but require the gas to be done by him, you may find that he is more than happy for you to drill the flue, hang the boiler and pipe the heating to it leaving him to connect and check the gas, that way you he can still sign it off and you can save some cash, it is just the gas that needs certifying not the whole installation.

 

I actually calculate the heat required, fit the rads and pipe them as well as piping to the tank and boiler positions, the plumber justs fits the boiler and connects the hot water tank which is generally a Megaflo type pressurised vessel nowadays which also require signing off.

 

The house I am building at the present is using oil, now there is a god awful thing to work with! instead of a nice little pipe incoming from the boundary I have to find room for a tank the size of a car and a boiler that stands outside.

 

He is happy as he still gets a decent amount of work and doesn't have to do all the mundane bits, and I get a smaller bill.

[jcm@gwr]

Hi guys,

I agree with most of what has been posted, but as always there are exceptions and ways round problems, without

breaking any laws. For example, even though I am not an electician,[i am a plumber] I trained as an engineer with

TI and built packaging machines [and wired them up - 3 phase], therefore I am classed as competent and can do

certain electrical jobs in customers houses. I cannot add new circuits, but I can replace items and wire them up.

Likewise, I work closely with a htg. eng. and have installed boilers/repaired gas pipes in advance of his visit to the

site on the understanding he tests it thoroughly before he passes it [never had a fail yet]. By the way do not think

that because a htg. eng. might have more 'bits of paper' than a plumber does not mean he is any good at doing

ordinary pipework! I would still like to know where they enrol on the anti-gravity course for waste pipes!

Cheers, Jeff

[beeman]

What happens when and IF you/someone sells your house in 20 years time, are you keeping all the bits of paper /certificates to show that some now deceased tradesman with the appropriate bit of paper installed your equipment, or will your perhaps beneficiary not be able to sell until another regulation created jobsworth has checked and approved. Thank god I have been retired for a number of years having been an Electrical and maintenance engineer working for a company with one main premise and 5 satellite units, Electrical, Gas LPHW, Gas Hot Air, Gas Dehumidifiers, Water chillers, Electric Forktrucks/Hydraulics, Automatic Packaging machines, Data Cabling, and the list goes on, My Papers are some 50 ish years old now, and If I want to do any 'update/repair addition' to my home including fitting a new gas boiler a couple of years back, I will do it myself. When checking up with the H &S brigade some years back when employed , if I needed to be a Registered Gas Fitter, was told ,' If the Company considered I was competent, then NO', this is another instance of state madness, again the consumer shouldering the cost. Recommendations of tradesman are still perhaps the best insurance of a good job. I remember an old tradesman/neighbour telling me, when a customer asked, ' what am I paying for ? '. as it was a relatively simple problem he corrected, To which he replied , ' A LIFTIMES EXPERIENCE', Beeman

[chris p bacon]

What happens when and IF you/someone sells your house in 20 years time, are you keeping all the bits of paper /certificates

 

I suppose the simple analogy is when you choose from 2 identical cars one has a service history one does not, which do you buy.

 

I happen to think that gas certification is a good thing, I have seen too many bodged jobs and c*ck ups by people who think they are saving a few pennies, some parts of building regs are not perfect (part M) but standards have to start somewhere.

[beeman]

Could not agree more Chris but unfortunately in this C untry, [ not sure a letter is needed, ] when we proceed down a given path we always go too far, usually when some 'Crats' decide that there could be MONEY to be made. One only has to ask how much the nonsensical/overambitious Electrical Testing has cost our industries,and certainly if it had been implemented in the time scheduling originally proposed.many companies have to employ Eiectrical staff just to implement, subsequently the product produced becomes more expensive, Job creation/Extra taxable incomes comes to mind. In my latter working years I asked a visiting German Engineer how they conducted their 'testing', he shook his head in amazement. Beeman

Edited September 6, 2011 by beeman

[Ceptic]

Look on the 'bright side' fellas.

lt's good in the way, the majority of us coped with the change-over from gas to electric lighting. Think of the present-day charges + paperwork involved in just replacing a mantle !!.

Mind you, if these rules & regs. go much further, we won't be able to change even a light bulb, without being certified.

 

Cheers for a good read.

Ceptic. (49 years in the natural gas, high pressure, filtration business, and still not allowed to go near a trickle of the stuff, at home)

Edited September 6, 2011 by Ceptic

[chris p bacon]

(49 years in the natural gas, high pressure, filtration business, and still not allowed to go near the trickle of the stuff, at home)

 

I steer clear of a "trickle of gas" at home, it tends to have "unusual" properties

[Southernman46]

Mind you, if these rules & regs. go much further, we won't be able to change even a light bulb, without being certified.

 

Wot's a light bulb then ?? ....................... couldn't find one in the shops

[Kenton]

You will soon need a union card to change a light bulb, or even worse if the greens have their way, to have to pay someone with a union card to turn on the light bulb.

 

I have to ask how it was that all this "jobs for the boys" card carrying restrictive practice was introduced by the last government?

 

The cost of doing anything has increased exponentially since those who do it have to pay their subscriptions and flag wave their certification. Nothing has changed with the basic job or the basic level of skill required to do it. Yet for some reason they can command salaries on a par with a brain surgeon.

 

A number of years ago I completely rewired our previous house up to the mains fuze then paid someone from the electricity board to test it and make the final connection. In that house I replaced all the plumbing and installed central heating including a boiler, finally getting a Corgi engineer to connect to the mains gas and test the boiler. No certificates needed just receipts on file for the testing and final supply connections. The work was easy and straightforward and passed all tests. What was the reason or justification for introducing all this red tape?

[The Stationmaster]

A number of years ago I completely rewired our previous house up to the mains fuze then paid someone from the electricity board to test it and make the final connection. In that house I replaced all the plumbing and installed central heating including a boiler, finally getting a Corgi engineer to connect to the mains gas and test the boiler. No certificates needed just receipts on file for the testing and final supply connections. The work was easy and straightforward and passed all tests. What was the reason or justification for introducing all this red tape?

The stated reason was to eliminate the problems and dangers leftover by cowboys - be they the sort you pay for a rubbish job or householders with a D-I-Y inclination but a lack of either technical ability or the requisite skills. In our previous house I inherited several electrical death traps from the previous owner and - as I may have mentioned in the past - his day job was concerned with safety procedures in a major nuclear facility which manufactures weapons grade material.

 

So in some respects I don't argue with the need to introduce standards etc but where I take strong issue is the incredibly bureaucratic way in which it has been done plus the inability for competent non-certificated folk to have a job professionally inspected and signed-off. I wired my garage/railway room but the consumer unit was installed by a professional who made off the mains connection and tested the entire installation but wouldn't issue a certificate as he hadn't installed it himself. He asked why I had made provision for (but not installed pending his advice) a particular earth on an armoured cable so I duly told him that I had been told to do it by one of the partners in the firm he worked for (although I hadn't done the complete job because I was wary of that instruction). Seems there are 'professionals' and then there are, well, 'professionals', but they all have the right pieces of paper and I don't.

[Kenton]

 

 

<em>Seems there are 'professionals' and then there are, well, 'professionals', but they all have the right pieces of paper and I don't

 

Probably like all 'qualified' professionals - get 3 together and ask for an opinion and you get at least 4 different answers, none of which are perfect and none of which resolve your problem - they will all meet paper approval but not by each other.

[chris p bacon]

 

So in some respects I don't argue with the need to introduce standards etc but where I take strong issue is the incredibly bureaucratic way in which it has been done plus the inability for competent non-certificated folk to have a job professionally inspected and signed-off. .

 

For Electrical work you are able to do this, there a many companies around who will for a reasonable fee inspect an installation and test it to comply with Building regs, they just have to see any wiring before it is covered.

Suprisingly there are many people that pull cable from a reel and let it twist and knot when pulling it through joists and not realise how many problems they are storing up for the future, as well as putting sockets in a kitchen next to a sink.

 

When the houses are wired out now, they cost no more than before and I get a certificate for building regs that states that the installation has been tested and inspected, I think anything that improves our pretty dire housing stock in this country is a good thing, maybe it's not perfect but then what is?

[APOLLO]

A man jumps out of an airplane with a parachute on his back. As he's falling, he realises hiss chute is broken. He doesn't know anything about parachutes, but as the earth rapidly approaches, he realizes his options are limited; he takes off the parachute and tries to fix it himself on the way down. The wind is ripping past his face, he's dropping like a rock, and at 5000 feet, another man goes shooting up past him. In desperation, the man with the chute looks up and yells, "Hey do you know anything about parachutes?!"

 

The guy flying up looks down and yells, "No, do you know anything about gas boilers?!"

Edited September 6, 2011 by APOLLO

[Southernman46]

Quick war story

 

Some years ago when living in Ashford, I was revamping the downstairs toilet - including modifying the lights and had a live cable sticking out of the wall. I knocked over a length of wood causing two of the conductors to touch - lots of flashing and buzzing but no tripping of the protection and in the time it took for me to separate the conductors, the entire downstairs lighting ring circuit cable had almost melted too - luckily not sufficient to set the house alight.

 

After spending the next day Saturday rewiring the lighting ring - I then looked at why the fuses hadn't blown and quite frankly wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't discovered it myself. The entire supply to the property (i.e. the meter tails to the fuseboard - sealed with wire and lead tags at both ends) were back to front putting the fuses on the outgoing side - no wonder the lighting fuse hadn't blown. A VERY careful re-arrangement (using a borrowed pair of railway rubber gauntlets) remedied the problem - tested by putting on some deliberate shorts on and blowing some fuses. The real scary part of this tale was that the fuseboard had been installed some years before and signed off by the local REC !!

 

and just to round this tale off I managed to put a floorboard nail through a 28mm bolier feed pipe on the Sunday morning (2 hours before the DIY stores opened) - it's amazing what you can do with a self-tapping screw and two bits of cycle tyre inner tube repair patches when pushed to it....................

[The Stationmaster]

After spending the next day Saturday rewiring the lighting ring - I then looked at why the fuses hadn't blown and quite frankly wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't discovered it myself. The entire supply to the property (i.e. the meter tails to the fuseboard - sealed with wire and lead tags at both ends) were back to front putting the fuses on the outgoing side - no wonder the lighting fuse hadn't blown. A VERY careful re-arrangement (using a borrowed pair of railway rubber gauntlets) remedied the problem - tested by putting on some deliberate shorts on and blowing some fuses. The real scary part of this tale was that the fuseboard had been installed some years before and signed off by the local REC !!

 

I might have mentioned this before but when our house was built the electrician asked if it could be used by the chap who inspects an example of the physical work as part of the competency reassessment process - no problem at all, a sort of double sign-off so quite welcome. We then finished up with electrical contractor boss man plus one of the chaps who'd done the work plus the inspector debating how the incoming gas pipe should be earthed as it did not enter the house by the meter box - but otherwise the job was ok. When the local gas main was renewed a couple of years later one of the gas company's installers pointed out that it didn't matter where the gas pipe was earthed in relation to its entry to the house as long as it was earthed in the right place in relation to the gas meter - which it wasn't.