Balance of Fitted/Unfitted Freight Stock in Transition Era

[edcayton]

I get the impression that a very high percentage of vans were fitted and therefore painted in the bauxite livery. I also think that most opens/minerals were unfitted and grey.

 

Is it safe to assume that all P.O. wagons such as presflo's, tankers etc which carried their owner's liveries were all fitted, in other words grey=unfitted, any other colour=fitted?

 

I'm obviously not talking about left-over PO wagons from the grouping era (the ones which someone on another thread said they enjoyed seeing being hauled by class 66 diesels!

 

Any info gratefully received as usual

 

Ed

[Fat Controller]

I get the impression that a very high percentage of vans were fitted and therefore painted in the bauxite livery. I also think that most opens/minerals were unfitted and grey.

 

Is it safe to assume that all P.O. wagons such as presflo's, tankers etc which carried their owner's liveries were all fitted, in other words grey=unfitted, any other colour=fitted?

 

I'm obviously not talking about left-over PO wagons from the grouping era (the ones which someone on another thread said they enjoyed seeing being hauled by class 66 diesels!

 

Any info gratefully received as usual

 

Ed

I believe the 'grey/bauxite' distinction only applied to railway-owned stock- certainly, APCM had fitted cement hoppers (both Presflos and Cemflos) and pallet vans painted grey.

As to the railway wagons- from the mid-1950s onwards, there had been a programme of fitting vacuum brakes to both vans and merchandise opens- by the mid-1960s, unfitted examples of either in revenue service would be unusual. Examples that had been fitted retrospectively can often be identified by the presence of extension collars on the buffers, or by unusual versions of the brake rigging (for example, those examples of LNER Highs built with AVB had 8-shoe brakes; those converted later have 4-shoe). The big areas for unfitted wagons even after the Transition Era were coal/mineral traffic, and steel traffic.

[Pete Piszczek]

 

I'm obviously not talking about left-over PO wagons from the grouping era (the ones which someone on another thread said they enjoyed seeing being hauled by class 66 diesels!

 

 

Obviously a 'peeve' if the 66 is not painted black or two-tone green with a ferret...

 

[Edwin_m]

...or the wagons painted EWS maroon.

[Pennine MC]

Is it safe to assume that all P.O. wagons such as presflo's, tankers etc which carried their owner's liveries were all fitted, in other words grey=unfitted, any other colour=fitted?

 

 

Not at all, as Brian says private owners were under no obligation to use the same livery distinction as BR.

 

The post-1948 PO fleet was still very varied with a lot of firms running relatively small numbers of wagons. The significant exception as ever is the railtank fleet - generally, anything with a 15ft wheelbase or over is likely to be vac fitted (or air after about 1966), anything smaller is very likely to be unfitted. With the rest it's difficult to generalise, though it stands to reason that any PO wagons built during the 60s had the highest incidence of being fitted, in order to run in the consist of long-distance freights. In most instances, before that time there would have been little incentive to entail the extra expense and older unfitted wagons in local flows often lasted into the 70s - David Ratcliffe's book for PSL of a few years ago gives a very good overview

[Tim H]

The big areas for unfitted wagons even after the Transition Era were coal/mineral traffic, and steel traffic.

 

How late did 7-planks last in any quantity? I've seen photos of WR coal trains in the mid-60s formed of a mix of BR steel-bodied 16-tonners and unfitted 5-plank wagons. Did the majority of 7-planks go by the early 60s?

[coachmann]

Looking back it is perhaps suprising just how many types of wagon were unfitted. BR continued to build 5-plank unfitted goods wagons, though some were converted to vacuum brakes later in the 1950s.

 

Specialised wagons such as for carrying pig-iron and Conflat LD wagons were never vac fitted. 16T, 21T and 24T mineral wagons we all remember in grey, but there were also the 21T coal hopper wagons, coke hoppers, iron ore hoppers and even grain hoppers and gunpowder vans. Even steel bolster and plate wagons of 4-wheel and bogie type were unfitted. Pipe and tube wagons too.

 

Many of us older types will have memories of slow clunking unfitted freights, buffers clanking, although some workings did go at a good clip. It must have taken good cooperation between enginemen and guards to keep such trains in check, but such things are as much a part of the past now as trolleybuses and the Beatles.

[Tim H]

Just found a 1962 pic in a Middleton Press book of a class 22 (D6300 in old money) on the Helston branch. Mostly BR 16t mins, but one wooden-bodied coke wagon in the formation. At least one other 7-plank in the train too. B/W photo, but I assume they're all unfitted.

 

When did fitted 16t mins start to become common? I know unfitted ones lasted almost to the end.

[Fat Controller]

How late did 7-planks last in any quantity? I've seen photos of WR coal trains in the mid-60s formed of a mix of BR steel-bodied 16-tonners and unfitted 5-plank wagons. Did the majority of 7-planks go by the early 60s?

Just been looking at a photo of Sandy Junction yard on the L&MMR (a location my mother used to take me past in my push-chair in the late 1950s) taken in 1962- about 40% of the wagons visible are 7-plank minerals. It would be perhaps a year or two later that I would see rows of these awaiting scrapping near Llanelly shed. I wonder if the later preponderance of 5-plankers was because these were unfitted merchandise opens that it had been decided not to vac-fit, but to use instead to replace life-expired 7-plankers for loco coal.

16t fitted minerals were pretty rare beasts, in proportion to the whole, into the 1970s. They weren't popular with NCB shunters, whilst some were also incompatible with unloading equipment at ports and elsewhere. They would thus often be found in traffic like scrap, limestone and other minerals.

[Pennine MC]

How late did 7-planks last in any quantity?

 

Brian's recollection coincides with the generally accepted dates and my own study of pics - the last years they were seen in any numbers would be 1962/63

 

I wonder if the later preponderance of 5-plankers was because these were unfitted merchandise opens that it had been decided not to vac-fit, but to use instead to replace life-expired 7-plankers for loco coal.

 

Interesting theory.

 

When did fitted 16t mins start to become common? I know unfitted ones lasted almost to the end.

 

The fitted fleet was made up principally of the (about) 11,000 that were built thus (up to 1959) and another large batch (possibly as many as 8,500 or more) converted in the mid 60s. Even that was only maybe 10% of the total surviving by 1970ish and it took withdrawals of the unfitted ones to make them (relatively) 'common' - even in 1977 there were still twice as many unfitted as fitted. The last traffic use of unfitted 16 tonners was in '83, the fitted ones lasted (just) til '88

[coachmann]

Trains of 16t steel mineral wagons were used down here in the 1970'as and 80's to carry stone from Penmaemawr Quarry. Granite chippings must have been heavier than coal as rectangular holes were cut partway up the sides and I presume loading was done up to the holes. I photographed a train of some of the oldest downtrodden wooden wagons I've ever seen in modern times in use carrying old ballast to the tip at Mold Junction. A class 40 was at the head so it must have been the early 1980's.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi all,

 

The best information I came across regarding this sort of thing was in a series of articles which appeared during the 1970's in Model Railways.

 

Now - If memory serves me well!

 

It was called 'Getting the Balance Right' and I think went to 4 or 5 editions of the magazine.

 

Think it was done by someone by the name of Walters but cant remember and would have to go into the boxes in the loft to check.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Thanks

[hmrspaul]

Trains of 16t steel mineral wagons were used down here in the 1970'as and 80's to carry stone from Penmaemawr Quarry. Granite chippings must have been heavier than coal as rectangular holes were cut partway up the sides and I presume loading was done up to the holes. I photographed a train of some of the oldest downtrodden wooden wagons I've ever seen in modern times in use carrying old ballast to the tip at Mold Junction. A class 40 was at the head so it must have been the early 1980's.

Yes. but not POs which went, as others have said by 1964, followed in 65-66 by the non standard steel minerals (slope sided, "SNCF cupboard door" types). You probably saw Soles or Haddocks, or LMS 3 Planks or anyones 5plank open merchandise and shock opens.

 

There has been a recent thread about the ratio of opens to merchandise but I cannot link without losing this posting.

 

To respond to the original request there were thousands, if not tens of thousands of private owner wagons on BR in the 1950s - in addition to the tank wagons anything which required a specialist wagon remained in PO use in 1948 and thousands of wagons were added to this. They had their own liveries. But, they were relatively rare because the total fleet was very very roughly 6 - 800,000 wagons, half a million of which were mineral wagons. But, the POs being specialist were in specific traffics - not like pre war when the POs were the standard mineral wagon and worked all over (see the 9 books by Turton and 2 by Pope for analysis of where they worked.

 

Paul Bartlett

[The Stationmaster]

 

The fitted fleet was made up principally of the (about) 11,000 that were built thus (up to 1959) and another large batch (possibly as many as 8,500 or more) converted in the mid 60s. Even that was only maybe 10% of the total surviving by 1970ish and it took withdrawals of the unfitted ones to make them (relatively) 'common' - even in 1977 there were still twice as many unfitted as fitted. The last traffic use of unfitted 16 tonners was in '83, the fitted ones lasted (just) til '88

 

An interesting aside on that is just how many of the various types were in traffic use as opposed to in storage or 'awaiting repair' - which often meant 'waiting on a change in monetary limits but no decision made to withdraw'? I certainly don't argue with your, and other, views which have been based on observation but in some parts of the country unfitted traffic wagons other than more specialised types such as bogie bolsters and Mins (various) were an ever increasing rarity from the late '60s onwards. Obviously geography also played a big part and in some colliery areas the opposite was true with vac braked being very much in the minority in any form.

[Fat Controller]

An interesting aside on that is just how many of the various types were in traffic use as opposed to in storage or 'awaiting repair' - which often meant 'waiting on a change in monetary limits but no decision made to withdraw'? I certainly don't argue with your, and other, views which have been based on observation but in some parts of the country unfitted traffic wagons other than more specialised types such as bogie bolsters and Mins (various) were an ever increasing rarity from the late '60s onwards. Obviously geography also played a big part and in some colliery areas the opposite was true with vac braked being very much in the minority in any form.

To further enlarge on Mike's point; here are some comments about two locations some twenty miles apart which I studied pretty closely in the period 1972-4:-

For my A-level geography project in 1972/3, I wrote a piece on the links between railways and industrial development in the Gwendraeth Valley. This involved spending quite a bit of time around the two surviving lines serving the area... Visits to Burry Port yard, which would normally have about 100 vehicles standing, produced a maximum of about five fitted wagons, all minerals with incoming coal for the local merchants. Not one fitted mineral was to be found in the lines of wagons travelling to or from the washeries at Coedbach, the majority of which were in circuit between there and Swansea Docks

In 1974, my father got me a summer job at BSC Landore Foundry, where I ended up doing a lot of those administrative jobs that might be be left normally. One was to walk the site with a copy of a BR Telex and a notebook, log the wagons we had on site (an average of 50+)and check them against BR's figures for demurrage (a dirty job, but someone had to do it..)The notebook wasn't for work, but to note peculiarities for modelling purposes. In contrast to Burry Port, up to 50% of the minerals on site on any given day were fitted.

[hmrspaul]

Hi all,

 

The best information I came across regarding this sort of thing was in a series of articles which appeared during the 1970's in Model Railways.

 

Now - If memory serves me well!

 

It was called 'Getting the Balance Right' and I think went to 4 or 5 editions of the magazine.

 

Think it was done by someone by the name of Walters but cant remember and would have to go into the boxes in the loft to check.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Thanks

Sorry, your memory fails. It was Don Rowland who wrote Getting the balance right.

 

I would suggest you are also remembering a separate series by Martin Waters. He wrote about different traffics - the one I recollect most clearly being about livestock traffic. Serendipitously when I joined the local Ebor (York) group I discovered Martin was, and remains, a long term member.

 

IIRC these articles were in Model Railway News - the predecessor of Model Railways.

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

An interesting aside on that is just how many of the various types were in traffic use as opposed to in storage or 'awaiting repair' - which often meant 'waiting on a change in monetary limits but no decision made to withdraw'? I certainly don't argue with your, and other, views which have been based on observation but in some parts of the country unfitted traffic wagons other than more specialised types such as bogie bolsters and Mins (various) were an ever increasing rarity from the late '60s onwards. Obviously geography also played a big part and in some colliery areas the opposite was true with vac braked being very much in the minority in any form.

 

What also gets overlooked is that requiring all trains to be power braked was introduced by region. I don't have the details to hand, but the SR went PB earlier than other English/Welsh Regions (you see I am not sure about Scotland!). This had two consequences

- the fitting of temporary through pipes to some wagons for special movements - such as this PARROT http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p51753161.html where the 'temporary' pipe has been run down through the lashing rings. and

- the other was the 'release' to other regions of wagons usually associated with the SR - such as the long SR BORAILs http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p63702830.html

 

Paul Bartlett

[Guest Phil]

Trains of 16t steel mineral wagons were used down here in the 1970'as and 80's to carry stone from Penmaemawr Quarry. Granite chippings must have been heavier than coal as rectangular holes were cut partway up the sides and I presume loading was done up to the holes. I photographed a train of some of the oldest downtrodden wooden wagons I've ever seen in modern times in use carrying old ballast to the tip at Mold Junction. A class 40 was at the head so it must have been the early 1980's.

 

 

Sorry to dash your memory a little Coach.

A largish number of 16T minfits were transferred to the Permanent Way engineers in the early 1980s in an attempt to modernise and vacuum brake the spoil carrying fleet. Great idea, except that spent ballast (spoil) was heavier stuff than coal. The engineers at weekend engineering junkets were loading the minfits which had been recoded ZHVs and a "D" added to the number, way too high, in an attempt to fill them. With no way of seeing into them from the ground, the wagons shops cut rectangular holes in the sides to keep a check on load height.

 

It is fair to say that the ZHVs were not a roaring success so the Turbot, Tope, Clam, Rudd programme replaced them.

[coachmann]

Hi Phil, so what you're saying is the steel mineral wagons with slots some way up the sides were on PW work, not Penmanemawr ballast traffic. Ah well that sorts that out.

[hmrspaul]

Hi Phil, so what you're saying is the steel mineral wagons with slots some way up the sides were on PW work, not Penmanemawr ballast traffic. Ah well that sorts that out.

Err a ballast working would be a PW work... Ballast was worked in non revenue, departmental wagons. So it is possible they were carrying new ballast - but as mentioned it is far higher density than coal and as the minerals were only rated at 16tons overloading was far too easy. This is an example of a ZHV http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p14663355.html

 

Paul Bartlett

[Guest Phil]

Hi Phil, so what you're saying is the steel mineral wagons with slots some way up the sides were on PW work, not Penmaenmawr ballast traffic. Ah well that sorts that out.

 

Yes Coach, but ZHVs were normally used for (dirty) spoil and not for fresh ballast, so the Penmaenmawr thing seems strange, unless the wagons were stabled at Penmaenmawr off a weekend job, then tripped back east during the week. Ballast work in those days tended to involve outstabling loaded and empty wagons midweek ready for weekend possessions.

 

The problem is that possibly you had the same problem the engineers had, by not being able to see into the minerals to see what was in them. Be interested though to know whether you have any evidence of them loaded with fresh stone, as this would be unusual.

[coachmann]

Err a ballast working would be a PW work... Ballast was worked in non revenue, departmental wagons. So it is possible they were carrying new ballast - but as mentioned it is far higher density than coal and as the minerals were only rated at 16tons overloading was far too easy. This is an example of a ZHV http://gallery6801.f.../p14663355.html

 

Paul, this is exactly what I said :- Trains of 16t steel mineral wagons were used down here in the 1970'as and 80's to carry stone from Penmaemawr Quarry. Granite chippings must have been heavier than coal as rectangular holes were cut partway up the sides and I presume loading was done up to the holes.

 

Phil, I have no evidence they were used to carry new ballast. It was just a presumption as I don't think I ever photographed a train of steel minerals from a footbridge overlooking the train. I'll have to hope that friend Merfyn Jones spots this thread, as he will know. I remember they used to rattle through behind Class 24's and 25's, but it is rather a long time ago now.

 

Regarding the spoil train with wooden wagons, I'll try and dig out the photo.

[coachmann]

Cannot locate shot of wooden wagons but I did come across this of wagons in Penmanemawr quarry yard in 1977. 24T Ore wagons so not the same as the 16t wagons with slots cut into them though. I'll continue to look at stock prints.

[coachmann]

These might be of interest...

37427 'Bont-Y-Berno' with 16T minerals with slots cut into the sides for carrying granite chippings. Class 37's had not taken over passenger workings beyond the Cardiff-Rhyl, so this shot of the 37 passing Abergele was quite rare for the period (circa 1989-90)...

25067 passing Millers cottage footbridge between Rhyl and Abergele on 28th February 1979. 16T mineral wagons in use carrying cut up old steel....

A bit of course this one but it shows a complete train of S&T ex-Tube wooden wagons, most of which were in the short-lived light blue livery before the adpotion of red & yellow SatLink livery. The train was carrying concrete troughing for the Penmaenmawr-Bangor section. 31252 approaching Abergele on 2nd February 1989.

[Fat Controller]

The light-blue liveried wagons were for 'Project Mercury'; a joint project between BR and Cable and Wireless to build a fibre-optic telecoms network in competition to BT, using cable-runs alongside BR track. This was around the time of BT's privatisation, and was presumably intended to offer some form of competition. It seemed to fizzle out, perhaps due to the increasing use of mobile phones.

The wagons in the photo are 12t 'Pipe' wagons; many of these were built unfitted and subsequently vacuum-fitted, with a batch of 50 eventually receiving new suspension and air-brakes for use on MoD traffic. The original, unfitted, wagons had been built during the period of post-war austerity, and so some were released to traffic with unpainted woodwork; only the chassis and bodywork metalwork received black lacquer- Page 87 of Rowland's 'BR Wagons has a photo.