RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 3, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3, 2011 Sorry, your memory fails. It was Don Rowland who wrote Getting the balance right. The series was called "Keeping the Balance" and referred to wagon types & their percentage on the LMS in 1938. Yes it was Don Rowland and the articles appeared in 1974 July to December. Edit. Sorry, not just about wagons, but loco types, coaching stock types & NPCC types. I would suggest you are also remembering a separate series by Martin Waters. He wrote about different traffics - the one I recollect most clearly being about livestock traffic. Serendipitously when I joined the local Ebor (York) group I discovered Martin was, and remains, a long term member. Martin Waters wrote a couple of similar series. One was about Goods Locomotive development, the other about Goods Train operations. IIRC these articles were in Model Railway News - the predecessor of Model Railways. Paul Bartlett No, they were in Model Railways variously between 1972 & 1975. I can check my references if you need them. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The problem is that possibly you had the same problem the engineers had, by not being able to see into the minerals to see what was in them. Be interested though to know whether you have any evidence of them loaded with fresh stone, as this would be unusual. Phil, I have no evidence they were used to carry new ballast. It was just a presumption as I don't think I ever photographed a train of steel minerals from a footbridge overlooking the train. Some ZHV ex-minerals were marked up for 'clean stone', I have absolutely no idea why when there were must have been far more suitable wagons, but there you are I'm pretty sure I have a couple in my own collection, stored up at Barnetby in 1991. My understanding of the 'slotting' though is that it was for spoil carrying (and prevention of overloading), as wet spoil can be particularly heavy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 25067 passing Millers cottage footbridge between Rhyl and Abergele on 28th February 1979. 16T mineral wagons in use carrying cut up old steel.... Is that a 21T wagon in the middle of the train too...? A rake of ZHVs looks like a good modelling project. (great thread btw, very useful) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Is that a 21T wagon in the middle of the train too...? Yup, looks like one of the early 70s Shildon rebodies in the B315000-upwards range. 21 tonners were used for scrap, if they were unlucky enough to be around Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimero Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Unfitted wagons were still being used on the BR Eastern area into the early 90s on the potash trains. Another of my favourites is the report from the 70/80s 'Weaver Junction' where an ICI Caustic Soda train derailed due to the incorrect formation of the fitted head in relation to the unfitted part. Report is on Railway Archive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Unfitted wagons were still being used on the BR Eastern area into the early 90s on the potash trains. Where exactly, please? I'm aware of the unfitted Covhops on the Lynemouth - Blyth alumina, and the BTP/Tioxide tipplers for imported ilmenite in the Grimsby area; I also STR seeing a pic of HUOs somewhere in the North East behind a RF three-tone grey 37, but potash is a new one on me? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The series was called "Keeping the Balance" and referred to wagon types & their percentage on the LMS in 1938. Yes it was Don Rowland and the articles appeared in 1974 July to December. Edit. Sorry, not just about wagons, but loco types, coaching stock types & NPCC types. Martin Waters wrote a couple of similar series. One was about Goods Locomotive development, the other about Goods Train operations. No, they were in Model Railways variously between 1972 & 1975. I can check my references if you need them. Kevin Martin Thanks, I had overlooked that I was taking MR in 1974 - and Martin's articles are also in those early Model Railways. They are more recent than I had remembered. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimero Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Where exactly, please? I'm aware of the unfitted Covhops on the Lynemouth - Blyth alumina, Sorry that was the one I meant not potash, used to have 56 haulage on it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2011 Where exactly, please? I'm aware of the unfitted Covhops on the Lynemouth - Blyth alumina, and the BTP/Tioxide tipplers for imported ilmenite in the Grimsby area; I also STR seeing a pic of HUOs somewhere in the North East behind a RF three-tone grey 37, but potash is a new one on me? It is far from easy to remember the details but in 1992/3 when we were asked to agree the proposed change of Class 9 designation from 'unfitted freight' to 'Eurostar' there were objections from the Western, the Midland, and the Eastern (actually the then equivalents thereof) as we were all still running unfitted trains albeit tucked away in odd little corners of the network. the South Wales flow to Swansea Docks is the only one I knew about so i can't add any detail regarding elsewhere alas. (we were incidentally perfect luddites and said 'no' - and were then over-ruled of course. So we just carried on calling them Class 9 trains and ran them under Special Instructions). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Before running an unfitted goods, wouldn't one have to try and find a brakevan? Perhaps more difficult would be finding a guard who had been trained on handling unfitted trains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2011 Before running an unfitted goods, wouldn't one have to try and find a brakevan? Perhaps more difficult would be finding a guard who had been trained on handling unfitted trains? Very much so Larry - in both cases. And by the early '90s I've an idea the number of traffic brakevans was rather small (I did hear a figure quoted but can't remember it although my flabber was suitably gasted at the time - and most of 'em were dedicated to various dangerous goods flows in any case). And quite true about Guards of course although I'm sure the remaining unfitted working was in areas where it had long been endemic so there were suitably experienced staff still about (again no doubt in ever decreasing numbers). Almost as bad I suppose as us running refresher days on steam locos for Western men in 1985! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidBird Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 I've read somewhere (on here?) that the Gedling-Spondon circuit through Nottingham was the last unfitted working, with 20s and HUOs. Presumably this ceased with the closure of the colliery in 1991. Can anybody confirm this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 [ Sorry that was the one I meant not potash, used to have 56 haulage on it? Thanks, Yes, it did, the lack of vac brake on 56s not being an issue as it was with other freights I've read somewhere (on here?) that the Gedling-Spondon circuit through Nottingham was the last unfitted working, with 20s and HUOs. Presumably this ceased with the closure of the colliery in 1991. Can anybody confirm this? The two ER flows I mentioned above finished in 1994, I've long understood that they were the last. Maybe the Gedling one was the last one using BR wagons? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimero Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 When I did my BR Trainmans (D) course late 91/early 92 we covered class 9 trains as they were still in operation. As is rightly pointed out on here Brakevans were at a minimum (sort of) and the only ones you really saw were the BR vans on the Flask trains, 'Sharks', the S&T vans (red and yellow 'SATNET'?), Southern bogie vans for propelling stone trains and the 'Toadfish'? which was a CE van. Aside from that there was alack of brake vans, and then Class 9s ended. Now 9a was an unfitted? and 9b was partially fitted? 25 mph trains Roll on to modern times and yes Eurostar run as 9s and so do the trains I work on Class 9s on the East London Line. Virgin XC tried to get it in but failed. 9 being he redundant number so can be used to avoid schedule clashes, especially on the Southern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Sorry that was the one I meant not potash, used to have 56 haulage on it? Thanks, Yes, it did, the lack of vac brake on 56s not being an issue as it was with other freights I've commented on RMweb previously that we on the then LMR weren't allowed to use type 5s on loose coupled trains. Might have been different on other regions though, so I wouldn't dispute ER use of 56s on unfitted workings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Well, you're a rough lot down there Phil Bizarrely, I have a fairly clear recollection of a 56 on an unfitted engineers' working (ZHOs and the like) at Leeds City, probably in 1981 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 5, 2011 The only 'mainline' diesel locos barred from working engineering trains on the WR were Class 60s but that was in any case a blanket ban imposed by the owning business sub-sectors from Day1 of the locos in traffic as they wanted their new toys to be suitably cosseted and not allowed out to play at weekends with rough types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 The only 'mainline' diesel locos barred from working engineering trains on the WR were Class 60s but that was in any case a blanket ban imposed by the owning business sub-sectors from Day1 of the locos in traffic as they wanted their new toys to be suitably cosseted and not allowed out to play at weekends with rough types. Hi Mike It wasn't so much engineers trains per se, rather it was wrapping the "man in the van at the back of the train" round his cherry red stovepipe !!! It was primarily for locos fitted with the PBL (stick) brake controller and the emergency plunger, but I believe 56s were lumped in. You can imagine the guard being bounced around his van if the driver hit the plunger and zero'd the brake on the loco, and whatever "fitted" the train had, if any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 ...there were objections from the Western, the Midland, and the Eastern (actually the then equivalents thereof) as we were all still running unfitted trains albeit tucked away in odd little corners of the network. Before running an unfitted goods, wouldn't one have to try and find a brakevan? Perhaps more difficult would be finding a guard who had been trained on handling unfitted trains? Were (some of ?) the Redmires trains unfitted up to the end of operations there in the early 90s or did they just have a brake van for the numerous TMO crossings on the branch ?. Certainly when I came to York in 1994 the RRNE Training Section along the corridor from me were bemoaning the loss of their days out training guards on the Redmires trains but how long before that had been I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Were (some of ?) the Redmires trains unfitted up to the end of operations there in the early 90s or did they just have a brake van for the numerous TMO crossings on the branch ?. Certainly when I came to York in 1994 the RRNE Training Section along the corridor from me were bemoaning the loss of their days out training guards on the Redmires trains but how long before that had been I don't know. The Redmires, like some other workings (Denby branch, for example), retained their 'vans because of the number of TMO crossings on the line. The last unfitted workings would have been more than a decade previously, when there were still coal trains to some local depots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 On the subject of unfitted High Goods, which was touched on earlier, I've just revisited a photo that intrigues me. It's in Derek Huntriss's 'Green Diesel Days' and shows a freight at Kyle in July '65. Mostly it's vans but at the rear, there are two Highs - one is bauxite and unremarkable, the other is clearly grey. It looks to be of generally modern appearance with sacktruck doors (i.e the bottom plank 'kicks out' at about 30 deg); it's loaded with something but it's hard to see what. It could be in departmental use but I do wonder if it's one of the late surviving unfitted Highs (there were a small number listed in the 1966 census in the OPC BR wagon book). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Hmmmm, not sure what that is loaded with. Strangely, the right hand side looks like sacks, but the left hand side appears to show some sort of angular thingy. Actually, I wonder if they could be concrete pipes of some sort...? The wagon body looks really clean as well - newly painted? It doesn't even appear to have any replacement planks. (flip back a page for one of my favourite shots btw - the Oban shed ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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