Glorious NSE Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Okay i'm in, although i've not much beyond a basic idea of what I want to do with it yet! Whatever happens the following are givens: 1. It will be US outline 2. It will be HO scale standard gauge 3. It will be compatible with our "Freemo-esque" modular system to give it a use beyond a life as a standalone small layout (in fact, it's likely to be more interesting used that way that standalone) - module specs are here: http://rstowerfreemo.wordpress.com/ in case anyone is interested. So, idea's, on the old RMWeb I had a pair of 4' modules being planned out called "Alpha Packaging" - that might be the way to go, the pair together are still well under the 2010 size so knocking a cassette up to fit the rules would be an option. Alpha Packaging thread is here Alternatively, looking at the traffic flows on RS Tower an industry we could do with is a corn processing plant - most of the inbound and outbound loads for such an industry would match with other industries on the layout making some nice neat industry pairs for some flows. There are down sides to that idea, the most obvious being that corn processing plants are mega-huge industries - for example here is Corn Processing International's Argo plant in the Chicago suburbs (It's above and to the left of the marker - have a flick to "ariel" to get an overview and "birds eye view" to take a close look at the industry,) it does at first look a bit daunting but many of the structures would be easily do-able with the Ethanol industry that Walthers is currently shipping. I have my suspicions that prototype might not all fit to scale in 2010 square inches. Possibly not in 2010 square feet either. It is however an intriguing idea - traffic flows that might result: Inbound - Coal for power plant (top of site) - open hoppers Inbound - Grain/corn for processing (bottom left of site) - covered hoppers Outbound - assorted granular loads like Corn Starch in either Pressure Discharge covered hoppers or Airslides Outbound - assorted liquid loads like Corn Syrup, Vegetables oils in assorted tank cars All except the coal could be on-layout flows that don't need to add to the traffic in and out of staging. Current thoughts are that a 9' module (3x 3' boards) might work and still allow me a handful of inches to do a cassette with to make it all "legal" with the rules - might need to offset the boards to get enough industry space one side of the tracks however. Interesting idea though....musing will no doubt continue... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 Quick xtrkcad sketch of "corn products" envisaged as a straight 9' module on 3x 3'x18" boards - below the main line is a siding for inbound grain, above is a double-ended siding for main line trains to drop off around 4' of train, top right is tank car loading racks, top centre is a shed for loading corn starch into airslides/PD hoppers and top left is a short track for coal unloading - it's set up to allow a plant switcher like a GE 45t to handle all moves "above" the main line... Size works out to 1944, so that gives me 66" for staging, or a 33" long cassette, although it's not really designed to work as a standalone layout. Still thinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Musings continue - the plan above gets what I want in there, but it looks rather boring and forced into a small(!) space - can I do better by putting it all (or at least some of it!) on a curve, initial experiments are hopeful, with more implied space in what actually seems to be fewer square inches on my current calculations. Downside of all of these though is I won't be able to set up the whole thing anywhere at home, max 2 boards at once... More Hmmms to follow I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 There are down sides to that idea, the most obvious being that corn processing plants are mega-huge industries Er yes... I grew up in the shadow of the malt kiln in Louth - well not quite literally but it was big enough and a large white skyscraper isn't quite what you expect in the middle of a moderate sized market town . What with that and the tallest (and most beautiful) parish church spire in Britain, we had a skyline..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 LOL yes I can imagine. The Google Maps one is a little easier to link to - I make the Argo plant about 1km square, you're not really going to get more than a "gist" of a plant that size no matter how big your layout is... Google Maps - Corn Processing Intnl, Argo, Chicago Rival ADM's plant in Clinton IA is a little more manageable in size as it's hemmed in by the main UP (ex CNW) rail line and a channel of the Mississippi river... Google Maps - ADM Corn Processing, Clinton IA or: Bing Maps - ADM Corn Processing, Clinton IA Still huge plants though, although that's the positive point in traffic generating terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Further example: Bing Maps - ADM Corn processing - Decatur IL Go North from the dot into the plant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Okay, the corn processing plant isn't really feasible, I can't get anything that looks quite intense enough in the space available (although it's not too far out) - and as i'm pushing the upper envelope of the 2010 rule anyhow it also gave me practical issues of working space, storage space and capability of transport, plus actually getting something done in a sensible time!! Boards are now on order for a 7' long version of Alpha Packaging (see link in the first post) - basically it's two 3'6" long boards with a single track modular join (18") one end, double track (20") the other. Alpha Packaging features on the right (the module may get renamed CP Alpha after the end of double track...still musing that one) - whilst the left hand features a scrap yard and steel terminal opposite each other across the main tracks. Switching the scrap yard will need a second cartridge if used standalone but the other two industries should be switchable with just a main staging cartridge on the single track end. Rolling the two module idea's (Alpha/Omega) being mused on the other thread together allows for the industries to spread/overlap slightly to hopefully avoid looking over cramped, although the road crossing may have to become an overpass and I think I have to lose the office/car park for Alpha to another (offscene) side of the structure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 You might be able to use the first one here for ethanol- filched from another post on overseas http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30974 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Cool! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 You might be able to use the first one here for ethanol- filched from another post on overseas http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30974 What a cracking idea for a micro - 5th and 6th image down ... now I wonder what gauge, scales and radius that would work out to be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 It may need the switch to end double track moving left and swapping places with the switch to the steel fabricators, to give Alpha Packaging a bit more room to swing the lower spur round the end of their building... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 Okay it's been a while, time for a project update! In the end I went for much less of a cram, the module will have Alpha Packaging on one side of the tracks and a scrapyard on at least half of the other (and possibly a couple of low-rent, "wrong side of the tracks" style houses in the other bit, we'll see!) I'm told the boards are built and hopefully i'll pick them up on Saturday, in the meantime i've been building the basic structure for Alpha Packaging using the Great West Models "tilt up" concrete structure kit parts. The structure is about 3' long in it's entirety which gives a very pleasing bulk to the industry, and despite it being basically one floor high manages to nicely tower over high cube boxcars in a nice realistic fashion! The industry will have two tracks now, one with two boxcar loading doors and one with just one, in addition there will be space for a plastic pellet hopper on one track to be unloaded away from the building. Having 7' of length to play with gave me the confidence to just build the structure and I can arrange the tracks to suit later. I'll try and add a couple of shots of the structure tonight - i'm really impressed but i'm trying to decide whether the huge off-white starkness of it is too much - should I paint it a different colour? Or is the huge white brutalist lump of it just "right" in white because it looks so wrong if you like? http://greatwestmodels.com/ is their website if you want an idea of the kind of look - the actual kit used was "Fergus distributing" (part way down page 2 of the structure kits) although that's pretty irrelevant as this stuff is so unbelievably modular the building I constructed looks nothing like that! If I get tight for space on the tracks into there the main line double-to-single track switch can go the other side of the Alpha industry switch. I'm also umming and ahhing over the choice of switches, i'm wondering whether to use Peco's c83 insulfrogs here instead of the electrofrogs for ease of installation. We've found on the main layout that we have had issues with getting electrical continuity right through the point so adding a few extra jumpers I think will be neccesary either way, but i'm not sure at the moment that a dead frog will be that big an issue, all loco's in use should have at least 4 axles picking up on each side so a frog shouldn't interrupt more than one wheel at a time. Theoretically anyhow. And not having to switch a frog then gives me more freedom on how I physically change the points, do I use a local electrical panel working point motors, or can I set this up so all of them are "hand throws" built into the board - that wouldn't be unprototypical for the kind of ops we do. Has anyone used the c83 Insulfrogs and if so what do you think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted August 5, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2010 And not having to switch a frog then gives me more freedom on how I physically change the points, do I use a local electrical panel working point motors, or can I set this up so all of them are "hand throws" built into the board - that wouldn't be unprototypical for the kind of ops we do. Has anyone used the c83 Insulfrogs and if so what do you think? Martyn I have something over 40 Peco Code 83 Insulfrogs. 18 are fitted with a Tortoise, about a dozen with a Peco snapper, some are hand-operated. Like you, all my motive power is at least 4-axle, and I have quite a lot of steam. I do find dead-spots on a minority of points - and the layout is in a rather damp 1850 barn, so I have added feeds to the switchrails on the awkward ones, but by no means all. By the same token, a few argue with some wheelsets in the form of a short which trips my Powershield - but the good old nail varnish on the railhead nearest the frog generally sorts things out for months at a time. As you are only looking at a modest number of points, then the addition of feeds is not too much of a chore - I'd suggest it, but I have no other real issues with the Insulfrog points to stop me recommending them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 Thanks Ian - my thoughts were to bond the switch rail to the diverging rail across the pivot, and bonding that rail to the neigboring stock rail so both routes are permanently live, both of which we'd started doing for reliability reasons on the electrofrogs on the main layout anyhow as we'd had a few where blades have gone dead (we suspect either glue from ballasting or paint from spraying track colour, but either way we ended up with dead sections) It seems like a good idea to just do those mods to either type of point when I install them, much easier to do it before the point goes in than fix it after it's installed if a problem arises! My thought were that if I can get that end of it working 100% reliably then the short dead frog isn't all that important - the double to single track switch I was going to use one of the big #8s which I guess might be a larger dead frog gap, but if any switch gets a point motor (and so possibly a powered frog) that would be the one to get it! And if I assume those connections need wiring on both versions, but I don't need to do any frog wiring on the insulfrog that's some wiring saved, always a good thing in my book! Is it particular makes of wheelset that sometimes don't like the insulfrogs? Presume the problem is the depth of tread just being enough to touch the "wrong" rail as it crosses the frog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted August 5, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 5, 2010 Is it particular makes of wheelset that sometimes don't like the insulfrogs? Presume the problem is the depth of tread just being enough to touch the "wrong" rail as it crosses the frog? I wish I could be more specific or helpful, but no common pattern has ever occurred to me, except maybe there are issues of lack of easement . Locos tend to be the problem, but then quite a lot of rolling stock has plastic wheels. The usual manufacturers are present - Spectrum, Proto 2000, Intermountain, BLI, Athearn Genesis, Stewart Hobbies etc. - & I do feel it is particular points, rather than a particular loco that needs its back-to-back checked. Since the trackbed is essentially flat - thin green underfloor insulation stuff over particle board - I'm not convinced I've somehow laid the points that poorly, either. Interestingly I have always had problems getting those lovely Branchline Trains 12-wheel Pullmans to run well - whether kit-built or RTR - yet do not recall them as guilty on this charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 hi Martyn Like you, I have been wondering about using the insulfrogs for ease - my limited pottering so far suggests the dead frogs aren't an obstacle - but I must admit my #8's are electrofrog so can't comment on them. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 5, 2010 Author Share Posted August 5, 2010 Okay thanks Ian, I think i'll get one to have a play with and see if I can work out what's going on Okay, here's Alpha packaging so far In the shot with the freightcars the boxcars are all 50', the covered hopper is a grain one but will be about where the plastic pellet hopper should go Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted August 6, 2010 Share Posted August 6, 2010 Martyn - Alpha Packaging building looks very good Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 7, 2010 Author Share Posted August 7, 2010 Thanks for the comments guys, i've picked up a R/H insufrog for the industry track, and the boards from Mel, he's done a nice job on these! So here we are! 7' is bigger than I thought! : Test assemble on Neil's drive, (the drive is sloped hence the odd perspective!) Marking out session on the front room (I hope you're going to move that!) carpet! I've managed to pick up a deadline too...it's needed as part of the setup for Exeter 2011...eek! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gwinnett Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 The more I look at it, the more I think the stark white building is the way to go. Jon (Who is now the proud owner of WSOR 4053! *) *In HO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 The more I look at it, the more I think the stark white building is the way to go. Thanks Jon, yes i'm thinking that way also - it's now had a coat of Halfords matt white to make sure it doesn't turn yellow as it ages. I need to work out what colours to do windows and doors on it, especially the railcar doors. I've been building a couple of small house kits I had "in stock" as well, and working out what other buildings I want to include. For the scrapyard i'm taking inspiration from one on a line that Tony Sissons linked to in the thread on the old RMWeb, to the South of Gastonia NC A Kibri kit for a Liebherr 934 high cab loader with grapple: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/405-11282 was delivered this morning, fortunately I found it in Europe (at Miniatur Wunderland of all places!) for about £17 including delivery as $56 plus shipping from Walthers is on the eye-watering side. Those seem to be fairly common scrap handlers - oddly the lettering on the boom is white on the decal set and not black as in the picture so i'm not sure how that will look, it seems like it might be a good excuse to do a rather battered older example with plenty of rust and dirt covering it maybe? The modern equivalents have movable cabs but this appears to be an older one with a fixed high cab on it, but as (for example) the scrap yard pictured has 5 or 6 of these things visible in the images and they aren't all the same spec i'm not too worried about it from an "era" point of view. The trick as usual will be to try and get the look of that place in what is actually a fairly tight space, the scrapyard site is about 8" x 2' - I might even get away with not having to model much scrap as there will need to be an "aisle" of dirt road for the loader to work between the scrap pile and rail track. I don't think modelling the big shredder machine they have there is acheivable in that space, but other bits that appeal are the big line of dumpsters/skips/dump trailers at one end of the yard, and maybe the office & truck scales at the "street" end? Other fun stuff on a Bing fly-over which I don't think I can do justice to would be the loading area where they seem to be loading baled scrap into enclosed trailers and even 20' containers (backloads to China?) - also the site is fully fenced, and at least some of that fencing has been "beautified" by having bushes planted along it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Updates - screw holes in boards filled, one board still needs to be sanded. Balsa trackbeds added for the main lines... Mining the web for weathering inspiration on the scrap handler: These are the modern equivalents with the funky movable cab: http://www.flickr.co.../pool-liebherr/ Dirty grilles, dirty chassis, lots of rust/dirt/grease on the grapple end. This one is much bigger than my one (looks like it's about to eat that RES Guv!!) but styling-wise it looks about the same age - lots of scope for weathering although I don't think i'll go quite that far on it: http://www.flickr.co...n/pool-liebherr The Kibri one comes with normal (albeit chunky) tyres, but both those examples have what looks to be solid wheels with a rubber coating - which makes sense when they are working in an environment where there might be sharp bits of metal lying around! Any idea's for a source for the specialist wheels? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeaky Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I shall be following this with interest, just the sort of thing im interested in, keep up the good work. By the way my layout uses No.5 Peco code 83 Electrofrog switches which are operated with Tortoise point motors. They operate very well, the frogs are switched via the Tortoise. But there are only 4 switches so Electrofrog was the way to go for me, if I had more switches I think I would still go electrofrog but then I like doing wiring! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Thanks (and if I haven't said so already I love the weathering on your dash 8 by the way!) Have to admit i'm an "anti-wiring" kinda person, I need to do it, and I need to do enough of it to make it reliable, but anything I can do to avoid or reduce it the better Final choice for me is that the big #8 on the main line will be an electrofrog with one of those clever TT300 integrated point motor/decoders on it as that lets it be dispatcher controlled in a setup if needed as well as allowing local push-button control if we're operating without the dispatcher, plus it will work off the track bus so minimising the wiring again. The three other switches will be #5 insulfrogs and to start with at least I think they will get high level working switch stands http://www.caboosein...page=HighLevels - they will only be used in a straight direction by heavy traffic so wear on the frog shouldn't be a big issue, i'll need to bond the switch blade for reliability but otherwise they should need no extra wiring assuming i'm feeding the tracks from both ends anyhow. I'm not completely sure the switch stands will stand up to the rigours of exhibition use but will give them a go to start with - I can always revisit that decision later if needed, but as i've a definate deadline to work to I figure I need to get on with it now rather than trying to second guess myself! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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