Eastwood Town - A tribute to Gordon's modelling.

[martin_wynne]

Martin, so good to see Irish railways at the correct gauge (I'm assuming, it certainly looks right).

Hi Pete,

 

Yes, 21mm gauge to P4 standards. 20 years on the UK exhibition circuit, and now in the care of the South Dublin Model Railway Club.

 

Adavoyle pictures: http://www.templot.c...RI/adavoyle.htm

 

Adavoyle at SDMRC: http://sdmrc.hobbysi...hp?article_id=4

 

A rather poor quality bit of video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqE17fxtAHY

 

Apologies to Gordon for hi-jacking his topic.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited October 25, 2011 by martin_wynne

[Trevellan]

Interesting to see this developing Gordon. I think your baseboards should have been on the Turner Prize shortlist this year, especially the late lamented traverser (I'm still having counselling for this loss ). Functional and aesthetically pleasing - a true work of art!

[gordon s]

Getting there and please feel free to comment if I have made a glaring error or you can see a way to improve things. I can't guarantee to include everything, but I'll certainly take on board any comments made.

 

Made some progress on the trackplan and this time started with the buildings and revised the track layout to suit the buildings. Absolute common sense really, but when your deep in track design the last thing that occurs is will the buildings fit.....

 

I haven't shown all the buildings at this stage, but here's a couple of them that are my favourites. None of them are my work. They were originally made by Alan Downes for Great Northern's original Peterborough layout. I was lucky enough to pick them up about two years ago and they've sat in a wardrobe ever since. It's been great to get them out and measure them up to create the scale drawing. As you can see, Pete, a fair bit has changed since the original mirror image plan. The biggest change is the loss of six storage roads to allow room for the branch. Thanks for that input Martin, as the branch backscene will go some way to disguising the storage roads behind...

 

At last I feel I'm getting somewhere.

 

 

 

[davidw]

With the buildings I've seen on this thread. This is going to be impressive!

Edited October 27, 2011 by davidw

[martin_wynne]

That's looking good Gordon.

 

I think you win the prize for being the first to post an image from the Templot sketchboard on RMweb.

 

Don't forget that in TDV you can add the platforms directly, and they will stay with the tracks if you need to change the curving, length, etc:

 

 

That's at real > platforms... menu item.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Thanks Martin. I've taken a look at the menu but it's not obvious what to do for a self confessed luddite like me. If you don't mind I'll ask the question on the Templot forum. As a first attempt, I'm pleased with the potential of sketchboard, so congratulations on another great addition to Templot.

[trisonic]

Looking better! I was wondering whether you could angle ETS to make a longer run through the station - but it would probably make the curves tighter at at least one end.

 

Best, Pete.

[gordon s]

It's a tough call, Pete. The smallest radius at present is into/from the branch. It's 42" on the left and 45" on the right. I don't really want to go below that, so I can retain some semblance of reality. There's nothing worse that seeing a coach straddle the curve on a small radii and in most cases I have close coupled the tender, to avoid that 'mind the gap' situation for the driver and fireman. The larger radii on the goods loop and outer main lines are between 4' and 5'.

 

I'm also limited for space. I have the stairwell to contend with, plus the goal of trying to keep boards within a 3' width. Add to that access beneath the boards to the ground floor roof space and the angles of the roof and it's not an easy space to work with. Either that or I'm a crap designer....

 

The platforms at present are 8' so that's a loco plus 7 coaches on a stopping train. Through trains can be any length up to 18' so that's plenty. Despite appearances, each of the platforms are curved 6" over the eight foot length. I've tried to work with C10 pointwork wherever possible with B7's in the yard and sidings.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Gordon,

Just some idle thoughts from someone who was once building a large 8-platform terminus with 4-track approach......

 

* When the seeds of doubt appear and you start tinkering, then's the time for a big reassessment

 

* Less is more

 

* The arrangement of tracks on the plan, paired by direction, looks very MR/LNWR to me

 

* If the GN is the prototype, wouldn't it be more likely that the tracks are paired by use?

 

* Having the same basic track layout at both ends of the station makes me a little uneasy

 

I really hope you achieve what you're after with your new design.

Best wishes,

Peter

[eldavo]

Don't know how I would improve it but somehow it seems to regular too me. It's too roundy roundy for me at least. If you just want a procession of trains then it'll work but somehow that seems a bit limiting. Sorry to be negative.

 

Cheers

Dave

Edited October 27, 2011 by eldavo

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Gordon,

Sorry, got my tracks mixed up.

 

What I wanted to say was that the GN (and LSW) was paired Up Slow, Up Fast, Down Fast, Down Slow (paired by direction). The MR/LNWR/GWR was paired by use, rather in the design of your plan.

 

Memo to self, don't take off the same week from work as the children......

 

Peter

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

Are you cramped for width at both ends? If you could skew the main tracks a little, that would get away from the oval train-set look and maybe allow you to swell the curve out a little bit more. It would also help to disguise the fact that the track plan at each end is a mirror image. Using a longish transition curve can be a great help in disguising the severity of the end curve:

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Thanks guys and I opened the discussion asking for your input, positive, negative or neutral, so please keep 'em coming. I'm not entirely happy about the regularity myself, but I am struggling with self imposed limits. Max radius curves as possible and the problems come with the inner on a curved turnout.

 

The number of platforms is dictated by the station building. I could drop the outer goods loops and diverge just before the station, which may improve things.

 

I want to use the AD buildings. I couldn't make anything of similar quailty.

 

Storage loops must be at least 12' long, but preferably 18'.

 

The room itself is shown here. The grid is in 1' squares. To clear the stairs the boards have to be a minimum of 950mm from the floor. At that height, you lose 2' each side due to the slope of the roof, so usable space is 18' x 14'. The bottom edge over the stairs is limited to 3' wide. The red lines indicate loft access to both the front and rear of the house. This must be freely accesible. so boards should not be much more than 4' deep in those areas. It will mean a plumber sliding under the boards and then through an access hatch, so 5' absolute max. The other issue is reaching those areas at the back.

 

The broad design parameters are I want to see trains run.

 

Full length with 8' platforms to take seven coach local expresses and 10-12 coaches as through trains.

 

Shunting is of little or no interest to me, but long through freight is. 40 wagons +.

 

An extensive shed area to hold some of my loco collection. Typically 15+ locos, that will change at ET station.

 

Gradients are now a no no as experience has shown 1:100 is a minimum and that takes up too much space.

 

Martin, can I ask a big favour. I have played with transition curves and can work parallel lines etc. Can you let me have your sketch as a box file and I'll see what I can do with it. I've struggled to generate it myself this evening and it will save me a lot of time.

 

I'm not unhappy about the comments, in fact I was thinking along similar lines, but after many hours work, I was prepared to settle for something to get trains running before I pass from this earth....

 

This is the space available.

 

Edited October 27, 2011 by gordon s

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

Happy to send you the file, but I'm struggling to reconcile your two drawings and set the dimensions. The track plan seems to be wider than your stated 14ft limit.

 

Is this how it looks?

 

 

If I've got that right, the most scope for change appears to be top left?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Thanks Martin. Apologies what I should have said is that I have allowed a minimum height clearance of 300mm on whichever side the main station is located. The storage sidings have no buildings at all close to the edge, so the angle of the roof is less of an issue, meaning I could pinch the best part of a foot giving me 18' x 15'. The layout can fit either way round, although it is marginally better for access around the stairwell, the way you have shown it.

 

There are two large velux windows down the right hand side and one on the left. They are 52" x 50" and are 32" in from each of the end walls.

 

Taking the running lines in pairs considerably reduces the station throat complexity. I stayed up last night working on something as a rough draft, but nothing like your time zone. Was that a late night or early morning...

 

My wife is out all day today, so I'll have some time to crack on.

 

Thanks again for your input guys. I really appreciate it. Working on your own can give you tunnel vision, so any alternative views are really welcome.

[artizen]

The way Martin has placed the layout in the space looks to me like a potential for trouble with the pointwork over the stair well. Rotating the layout 90 degrees then places a lot of the storage roads over the stair well. Either way - do you have a Plan B in case of derailments or even simply reaching stock on the line over the stair well?

 

Remembering some of the early photos (page 2) I would perhaps tend to rotate Martin's screen grab 90 degrees to give you more height behind the station for a backscene. The way it is now, the sloping ceiling would kill any attempt at realism over the station.

 

Just my thoughts.

[great northern]

Hi Gordon,

 

Just a few thoughts. Your station buildings are based on Spalding. The main building in particular is the real thing slightly reduced in length. Would it be worth looking at the real track plan as it was back in the '50's, and see if you can reproduce at least some of that? The station area was 18 tracks wide at its greatest, so you can't do that, but there were goods avoiding lines, and there was a bay for local services set into one of the platforms. I'm not suggesting that you model Spalding- it's just that I've found that the more like the real thing you model, the more like the real thing it looks.

 

Next- curve radii. Are you working on large radii going into the fiddle yard? I don't personally think that is necessary. Appearance doesn't matter in that area, and I've found that all my locos, even the Golden Age A4, will accept 33 inch curves, though I've stuck to 36 minimum where possible. If you compromise there will that free you up in other areas?

 

Finally as an alternative you could look at the layout at Welwyn Garden City as it was. Lots of scope there, and I think you could fit the station buildings into that quite comfortably. Again, I don't suggest you model the station, just that the track plan and operational interest would be good. Must go now, off on a golf day.

 

Gilbert

[gordon s]

Thanks Gilbert. I've done some searching and ordered the Middleton Press book 'Branch lines around Spalding' so hopefully that will contain some station plans to give me some ideas. The images from Google of current day are frightening bearing in mind what it was in the past.

 

I take on board the 33" radius, but won't that bring the drag factor into play and what about close coupled tenders?

 

OK, made some progress, but don't want to go too far in case I'm still way off the mark. The plan below has changed to reflect down slow/fast, up slow/fast and goods up/down. I haven't shown any headshunts or additional crossovers at this point. The branch will come off the slow line and end at a terminus. Never sure what is up or down, but it's the inner most line.

 

The hardest bit now is taking the inner goods line on the left hand side across the two opposing running lines, the correct running fast line and onto the correct slow running line. This means taking it across three running lines. I've cheated a bit by taking it to the fast line as it can always cross onto the slow line out of sight. The right hand end will face a similar problem, so right now I've settled for only running freight in a clockwise direction. Any suggestions how to overcome this would be appreciated.

 

Edit: perhaps in hindsight it will be easier to simply runs the two goods lines round the outside and not crossover the main running lines at all. In essence that gives me six full loops as per the original plan.

 

There's no doubt changing the running line order has really simplified it and putting the station on transition curves has visually improved it, so thanks for those suggestions.

 

 

Keep the feedback coming as it's easier to correct on screen, before cutting any wood at all....

 

Edited October 28, 2011 by gordon s

[gordon s]

Apologies Ian, I missed your post. The stairwell access is not that difficult as on the odd occasion something goes wrong, I have a pretty solid piece of wood that can be brought into play. This slides across the final section of the stairs on the right and allows you stand right up to the edge of the board, if that makes sense. The left hand end is easily accessible from the floor.

 

Rotating the layout through 90 degrees is an option, but you will lose at least a foot in length with the roof slope. It really prevents putting any buildings on each end of the board, because of the height restrictions caused by the roof slope. I will take another look at it, but previous attempts have brought added complications.

 

Thanks for your input though. It's all food for thought.

[martin_wynne]

Hi Gordon,

 

You wanted the box file for transition curves, and I have tried to match your original dimensions (overlaid in yellow). However, I see that you have moved on, so this is no longer much help. Each track consists of 4 transition curves -- into the corner curve, and then out of it again, at each end. I increased the width of the centre platform a little in case the existing buildings can't be aligned to the curve.

 

 

 

Let me know if you still want the file.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[gordon s]

Yes please, Martin. The latest one above will be great. Thanks again!

[trisonic]

It's amazing how a little change can make a big difference - Frankly I would have gone even further to make the overall design more like a rounded right angled triangle with ETS on the hypotenuse.

I am just the little voice you hear in your head, though...........

 

Best, Pete.

[artizen]

So the peak of the roof is at the top of the plan (running north/south) or does it run across (east/west)? I might have been confused by the actual location of the room fittings when I commented on the lack of space for a backscene behind the station. After all, we all know you build a pretty fine layout so it would be a shame at the end when it is all completed that there is no adequate backscene to enhance the realism.

[skipepsi]

I think a little full size testing of locos is called for, if close coupled they can get round 36'' easily then let them do it in the murk of the fiddle yard and make life easier and more realistic in the visual section.

[martin_wynne]

The broad design parameters are I want to see trains run.

Full length with 8' platforms to take seven coach local expresses and 10-12 coaches as through trains.

Shunting is of little or no interest to me, but long through freight is. 40 wagons +.

An extensive shed area to hold some of my loco collection.

Hi Gordon,

 

I don't want to throw a spanner in the works, but if those are your interests why do you need a station?

 

A largish MPD with the main lines running by would seem to better satisfy your interests. There would be no need for pointwork on the sharp curves as the crossover connections into the MPD could be in the centre of the layout. You might be able to fit in a lay-by loop for additional interest.

 

If they are all-level, you could probably get the main lines up and running quite quickly.

 

Then at a later date, to use your townscape buildings, how about a small branch terminus above the storage roads? Short branch trains can handle steeper gradients and it needn't be more than single track running round behind the main lines. You have space there for a very attractive small terminus.

 

I will post the .box file on Templot Club shortly as I don't think RMweb will accept that format.

 

regards,

 

Martin.