Bachmann Jubilee

[Lochinvar]

This could equally be posted on the Prototype forum,because I'm enquiring about a matter of protypical accuracy.

 

All of Bachmann's present models of the Jubilee carry numbers lower than 45665 because - as I understand it -they reflect the class in its low superheat/small firebox form. There was,I think,talk that we might in due course see examples in the later 45665-45742 form. (I'm guessing that no-one here knows when,or even if,that might happen). If ,meanwhile,"a friend of mine" (ahem) was thinking about a simple re-numbering/re-naming of one of the currently-available models,what would be visually "wrong" about it?. Were the differences between the 2 batches so visibly obvious?

 

I'd be grateful for an expert view on that-thanks

 

DR

[Mucky Duck]

Hi DR,

I'm not an expert and I don't know if the information about Bachmann Jubilee numbering is correct but I remember a pretty good article in Model Rail two or three years ago, describing the many differences of the prototype. I'll see if I can find it and scan it for you.

 

Also, if you're talking about the 4mm model, it may be useful to know that Brassmaster plans to introduce a Jubilee detailing kit later this year or early next ??“ and if it's anything like their Black 5's then it will also describe the numerous prototype variants. My Bachmann Jubilee is sitting waiting in the cupboard for this very reason!

 

Ryan

[sjp23480]

As built, there were two versions - short firebox vertical throatplate (5552-5664) and long firebox sloping throatplate (5665-5742).

 

The short firebox versions had the firebox/boiler joint between the centre and rear drivers - from memory I think they have 5 washout plugs along the top of the firebox?

 

The long firebox versions had the firebox/boiler joint over the centre of the middle driver and 6 washout plugs - I think?

 

As such the current Bachmann represents the earlier loco, but suspect the later variants will require significant changes in the tooling?

 

More details can be found here: My link

 

Steve

[Guest stuartp]

As built, there were two versions - short firebox vertical throatplate (5552-5664) and long firebox sloping throatplate (5665-5742).

 

The short firebox versions had the firebox/boiler joint between the centre and rear drivers - from memory I think they have 5 washout plugs along the top of the firebox?

 

The long firebox versions had the firebox/boiler joint over the centre of the middle driver and 6 washout plugs - I think?

 

 

Correct, the most obvious difference is the firebox. There were also detail differences between batches, two different designs of smokebox saddles and a shorter bogie amongst others but I've still not got to the bottom of those. The older Mainline/Bachmann models represent the long firebox versions - they're good but they're not up to the standard of the new ones, even with the later Bachmann chassis. Mind you, I ran my Mainline long firebox version for years as short-fireboxed 45588 'Kashmir' without even noticing.

[pH]

Information from the Irwell ???Book of the Jubilees??™:

 

- The main difference in appearance between the ???short??™ firebox and the ???long??™ firebox engines is the position of the join between the firebox and boiler. On the short firebox engines, this is to the rear of the mid-point of the centre splasher. On the long firebox engines, it is exactly in the middle of the splasher.

- Short firebox engines have 5 washout plugs on the left side of the firebox and 6 on the right side; long firebox engines have 6 on each side. Long firebox engines also have 2 extra washout plugs (also called ???handholes??™ or ???mudholes??™) on each side of the firebox, on the curve from the side to the top of the box.

- Crewe-built short firebox engines 45552-45556 and 45607-45654 had 6ft 3in wheelbase bogies, with a flat front stay. All others had 6ft 6in wheelbase bogies with circular section front stays.

 

Some of the differences were only there for a time:

- All the short firebox engines were originally domeless, but all engines were eventually fitted with domed boilers at some time.

- However, 5 of the boilers remained domeless, and were fitted to various of the short firebox engines up till 1963, at least.

- Short firebox engines started out with 2-piece smokebox saddles. Long firebox engines were built with single-piece saddles. Short firebox engines were gradually converted to single-piece saddles, though the book isn??™t clear about whether they were all converted.

- Jubilees had a circular plate, held by 4 bolts, on the outside cylinders. This wasn??™t there originally on the short firebox engines with domeless boilers. It was added when cylinder lubrication was changed.

 

Also, some engines built as 'short firebox' were later modified to accept long firebox boilers. So not all engines below 45665 can be assumed to be 'short firebox'.

[Leander]

Nos. 5567/90,5607/8/10/16/21/22/39/40/57 were all given modified frames to accept sloping throatplate boilers in order to create a pool of spare straight throatplate boilers.. However 5607/16/22 were subsequently re-modified back to original condition. All this work being done pre-war with the exception being 5610 in 9/43.

 

The other major boiler variation was the two boilers that were unmodified from the original domeless condition i.e. they just had a topfeed arrangements similar to the early built Black 5s. In BR days Boiler 8748 was fitted to 45615 11/8/49-29/10/52, 45578 30/12/52-8/8/57 and 45645 10/10/57-19/10/63 (withdrawn) and 8749 was fitted to 5579 18/1/47-25/8/51, 45600 9/7/54-20/6/58, then it went into store until finally being fitted to 45591 from 26/3/60 to withdrawal dated 26/10/63.

 

The 6'3" bogies were originally designed for the Patriots and were fitted to 5552-6 and 5607-54, the first 53 locos built at Crewe. Essery & Toms "The LMS Jubilees" Wild Swan (1994) state that these were "modified ex-Claughton units, made available from withdrawn members of that class". All the rest had 6'6" bogies.

 

And don't forget all those tender variations and the odd double chimney as well.

[Guest Max Stafford]

This is something I picked up on with my models. From photographic observations, it seems that nearly all the Jubilees working north from Kingmoor up, were of the long firebox variety. The only exception I've seen so far was 45588 Kashmir, which is the one I've ultimately portrayed.

 

Dave.

[Leander]

http://www.jubilees.co.uk/ is well worth a look. It isn't updated very frequently but it's got plenty of photos & info.

 

Max, the stright throatplate Blackpool based locos presumably worked through to Glasgow on summer Saturday dated trains. These would've been 45571 South Africa, 45574 India, 45580 Burma & 45584 North West Frontier from 1957 to 1963/4.

[pH]

This is something I picked up on with my models. From photographic observations, it seems that nearly all the Jubilees working north from Kingmoor up, were of the long firebox variety. The only exception I've seen so far was 45588 Kashmir, which is the one I've ultimately portrayed.

 

Dave.

You have heard of ???The Great Jubilee Exchange of 1952??™, Dave? The Scottish Region, which included Kingmoor at that time, transferred all its short firebox Jubilees south and got long firebox ones in exchange. After that time, all ScR-based Jubilees were of the long firebox variety. After Kingmoor became a LMR shed, it got back quite a few short firebox engines ??“ 2 of its last 3 Jubilees (45588/629/742) were short firebox ones.

 

However, short firebox Jubilees from English sheds were not uncommon in Scotland after 1952. Between 1962 and 1964, I saw 45558/62/80/88/89/91/602/04/06/13/29/34/35/49/58 north of the border, and I??™m sure there were many more.

 

If you??™re interested in Jubilees (lovely engines!), I??™d really recommend the Irwell Press book, except there??™s so much in it, we won??™t see you on here again for weeks!

[Lochinvar]

You have heard of ???The Great Jubilee Exchange of 1952??™, Dave? The Scottish Region, which included Kingmoor at that time, transferred all its short firebox Jubilees south and got long firebox ones in exchange. After that time, all ScR-based Jubilees were of the long firebox variety. After Kingmoor became a LMR shed, it got back quite a few short firebox engines ??“ 2 of its last 3 Jubilees (45588/629/742) were short firebox ones.

 

However, short firebox Jubilees from English sheds were not uncommon in Scotland after 1952. Between 1962 and 1964, I saw 45558/62/80/88/89/91/602/04/06/13/29/34/35/49/58 north of the border, and I??™m sure there were many more.

 

If you??™re interested in Jubilees (lovely engines!), I??™d really recommend the Irwell Press book, except there??™s so much in it, we won??™t see you on here again for weeks!

[Guest Max Stafford]

You have heard of ???The Great Jubilee Exchange of 1952??™, Dave? The Scottish Region, which included Kingmoor at that time, transferred all its short firebox Jubilees south and got long firebox ones in exchange. After that time, all ScR-based Jubilees were of the long firebox variety. After Kingmoor became a LMR shed, it got back quite a few short firebox engines ??“ 2 of its last 3 Jubilees (45588/629/742) were short firebox ones.

 

However, short firebox Jubilees from English sheds were not uncommon in Scotland after 1952. Between 1962 and 1964, I saw 45558/62/80/88/89/91/602/04/06/13/29/34/35/49/58 north of the border, and I??™m sure there were many more.

 

If you??™re interested in Jubilees (lovely engines!), I??™d really recommend the Irwell Press book, except there??™s so much in it, we won??™t see you on here again for weeks!

 

Thanks again Peter, loads of useful information here!

[Piemanlarger]

I believe those going to warley will be able to hear the new jubilee this weekend, buy the chip if the feeling takes you too!

[johnd]

The decoder arrived in the post yesterday, not had chance to fit it yet, believe the main diff between the SWD version and the forthcoming Bachmann variety is that on the Baccy version there will be random firemen sounds wheras the SWD version doesn't have it, but it is available as a function,

 

There is also a warning in the instructions that the safety valves sound is loud.

 

Other functions - 3 whistles , Boiler Drain, Cylinder Drain, Guards Whistle, Coupling, Lights and Fire box flicker.

 

Cant wait till I get it fitted later

[Bernard Lamb]

This is something I picked up on with my models. From photographic observations, it seems that nearly all the Jubilees working north from Kingmoor up, were of the long firebox variety. The only exception I've seen so far was 45588 Kashmir, which is the one I've ultimately portrayed.

 

Dave.

 

 

 

They liked this one so much that they reversed it into the turntable pit at Upperby!

Unless you get the DCC version I think the other Bachmann models have the wrong tender for Kashmir. At least that was the situation with the first selection released.

Bernard

[Guest stuartp]

They liked this one so much that they reversed it into the turntable pit at Upperby!

Unless you get the DCC version I think the other Bachmann models have the wrong tender for Kashmir. At least that was the situation with the first selection released.

Bernard

 

The DCC version is correct for Kashmir (short firebox, welded Stanier tender - 'Alberta' ?) - at least I hope it is because that's what I bought to re-number and swap the nameplates off the current Mainline long firebox rivetted tender pretender ! Need to remember to pick up a blanking plug...

[pinza]

This has been a useful topic for me as I often wondered why Bachmann did not produce a model of 5690 Leander with the new tooling, and all has been explained here. Does anybody know if Bachmann had any plans to bring out a revised boiler? If not could some kind soul going to Warley ask and report back?

[Lochinvar]

This has been a useful topic for me as I often wondered why Bachmann did not produce a model of 5690 Leander with the new tooling, and all has been explained here. Does anybody know if Bachmann had any plans to bring out a revised boiler? If not could some kind soul going to Warley ask and report back?

[Lochinvar]

Thanks very much for all these contributions. (I knew I could rely on this forum for quality gen!) There is more to this than I imagined,so reckon that I'll wait in the hope that Bacchy will produce a large firebox variant eventually. Meanwhile,one of "short" versions might still prove too tempting. Rails have their 45609 on offer at an attractive price. Although we did not have "shorts" shedded up here in the Scottish Region after the 1952 changes (except 45640 and 45657 at 68A,that is),they did work in from the S frequently. I remember the Patricroft locos in particular. So "Gilbert & Ellice Islands" could become "Manitoba" or "Bermuda",but would need a tender swop - I think.

 

DR

[pH]

Although we did not have "shorts" shedded up here in the Scottish Region after the 1952 changes (except 45640 and 45657 at 68A,that is),they did work in from the S frequently.

DR

45640 and 45657 were long-firebox engines, despite being numbered below 45665. They were 2 of those built as short firebox but which had the frames altered to accept long firebox boilers (see an earlier post from 'Leander' above).

[johnd]

If you??™re interested in Jubilees (lovely engines!), I??™d really recommend the Irwell Press book, except there??™s so much in it, we won??™t see you on here again for weeks!

 

PH what is the title and the ISBN for the book you mention

[pH]

If you??™re interested in Jubilees (lovely engines!), I??™d really recommend the Irwell Press book, except there??™s so much in it, we won??™t see you on here again for weeks!

 

PH what is the title and the ISBN for the book you mention

The Book of the Jubilee 4-6-0s

(British Railways Illustrated Special)

Edited by Chris Hawkins

Published by Irwell Press, 2002

ISBN 1-903266-27-0

 

(My old cataloguing teacher would have canaries about that entry, but it??™s so long since I did any cataloguing ??¦)

[Buhar]

Information from the Irwell ???Book of the Jubilees??™:

 

- The main difference in appearance between the ???short??™ firebox and the ???long??™ firebox engines is the position of the join between the firebox and boiler. On the short firebox engines, this is to the rear of the mid-point of the centre splasher. On the long firebox engines, it is exactly in the middle of the splasher.

- Short firebox engines have 5 washout plugs on the left side of the firebox and 6 on the right side; long firebox engines have 6 on each side. Long firebox engines also have 2 extra washout plugs (also called ???handholes??™ or ???mudholes??™) on each side of the firebox, on the curve from the side to the top of the box.

- Crewe-built short firebox engines 45552-45556 and 45607-45654 had 6ft 3in wheelbase bogies, with a flat front stay. All others had 6ft 6in wheelbase bogies with circular section front stays.

 

Some of the differences were only there for a time:

- All the short firebox engines were originally domeless, but all engines were eventually fitted with domed boilers at some time.

- However, 5 of the boilers remained domeless, and were fitted to various of the short firebox engines up till 1963, at least.

- Short firebox engines started out with 2-piece smokebox saddles. Long firebox engines were built with single-piece saddles. Short firebox engines were gradually converted to single-piece saddles, though the book isn??™t clear about whether they were all converted.

- Jubilees had a circular plate, held by 4 bolts, on the outside cylinders. This wasn??™t there originally on the short firebox engines with domeless boilers. It was added when cylinder lubrication was changed.

 

Also, some engines built as 'short firebox' were later modified to accept long firebox boilers. So not all engines below 45665 can be assumed to be 'short firebox'.

 

 

The first Jubilees were a switch of design from a planned continuation of the Patriots, same power classification, 5XP. That might be why the same bogie wheelbase was used, I suppose it's possible those bogie frames had already been manufactured.

 

A variation not noted above is chimney height (long and short) plus the one double chimney. Tenders were a varied lot and swapped about, roughly:- new Fowler 3500 gal (same as on the Crab), 3500 gal taken from Royal Scots, Stanier 4000 gal either welded or rivetted and few rivetted 3500 gal Stanier style tenders.

 

For me, using a short firebox engine to represent a long firebox version is a step too far, but it's your layout and maybe only people that have really read up on Jubilees will know.....

 

Coachman posted a comprehensive comparison between the new Bachmann and the old Mainline models on the old site and end up (as I recall) deciding the Mainline firebox was not of mustard-cutting quality.

[Guest Max Stafford]

To my eyes, the long firebox locos appear slightly hump-backed and massive. It's slightly unnatural looking...!

 

Dave.