rivet counters ruining the hobby

[Andy C]

Nothing wrong with rivit counting unless the rivit counter dosn't model anything!

 

We need a rivit counter on the new REALTRACK DMU please!!

 

 

You missed one Charlie, third bodyside panel from the left, top row.

[trisonic]

James is one of the more helpful members on here. Always willing to share.

 

 

This is a peculiar subject (the original OP question) since a very similar question turned up in the Beatty Well Tank thread today - but by a different member........

 

Best, Pete.

[Pugsley]

What I fail to understand is the kind of reverse snobbery that has seemed to develop over the last few years. Perhaps it is a side effect of the political correctness crap that we've been bombarded with over the past decade, where nobody is allowed to be better than anybody else, lest someone get offended. I see nothing wrong with acquiring a knowledge of a prototype and using that information to improve your own, or to help others improve their, models. Whether people want to listen is an entirely different matter.

 

As for the thread title, that's just laughable. The only people that have a chance of ruining the hobby are a*sholes, and they come in both rivet counting and non rivet counting varieties. And they'll only ruin the hobby for you if you let them.

[jamieb]

My own take on this is that rivet counters will only ruin YOUR hobby if YOU let them.We all have different abilities and are able to learn from some , give advice to others.Not everybody who comes along with such and such information is setting out to put you or your efforts down.Most genuine advice is offered in a spirit of helpfulness , although there is a thankfully small minority who like to 'flex their muscles' without really knowing a great deal of what they're talking about .Thankfully they're rare on this forum.Whatever advice you are given , it's your choice whether to take it or not, but don't criticize other people for wanting to help you.At the end of the day if your model is 100% accurate or just a vague approximation of the prototype , it doesn't matter, provided you are happy with it and have given it your best effort, BUT if it is a compromised model and you're putting it on public display , such as this forum ,you may have to accept that certain people will point out it's shortcomings!

 

As an example, I currently have a thread on here regarding building a Falcon Brass Cambrian brake van.This is my first attempt at an etched kit,from a manufacturer with a dubious reputation,and I have received some helpful advice , some of which I have taken on board, some of which I have decided not to, which doesn't make it any less valued, it's just that I know where my limits are with regards to this kit.I shall be posting the finished article in the next couple of days,I'm not 100% happy with it, but I've done the best I can manage with my current skills and I hope my next build will be better.Some 'rivet counters' may criticize the model (I think not as most on here are encouraging rather than disparaging), if that's the case I'll take it on the chin, it certainly won't ruin my enjoyment from building it.

 

With regard to criticism of RTR models, there is a standard which manufacturers need to achieve.Given the money and time spent on research and production,major mistakes are justified in their criticism e.g some aspects of the Model Rail/Dapol LMS van, but with regards to smaller esoteric details , we have to accept they are mass produced models to appeal to a broad market at a reasonable cost.If you want more detailed models, either modify RTR or kit/scratch build .That way you can apply the level of detail that satisfies you.In my case , as a pre-grouping modeller , I'm happy for anything that is offered.The standard of detailing is then applied to my own tastes and if anybody comes along and tells me its wrong, I'll be happy for any information received whether it's from a rivet counter or not!

 

Finally , as you're new here, take a look at some of Coachman's or Jazz's work.Trying to achieve their standards isn't rivet counting,these people are professionals and we should aspire to their standards even if we can't yet achieve them.Nobody is born with that ability and we all improve with time and experience ,but don't let anybody tell you that YOUR standards are wrong for YOU.

 

Jamie

[halfwit]

What I fail to understand is the kind of reverse snobbery that has seemed to develop over the last few years.

 

I see this as 'I can't ever hope to produce something as good as that so I'll make myself feel better by putting down those that can'.

['CHARD]

Is it just me or do rivet counters ever so slightly wind you up?

Not me, personally, no. But then I think the definition of a rivet counter needs study. If a thread winds me up, or I meet a social bore in person, then I will take avoiding action: on here I will probably not return to that thread and/or desist from reading posts of that member's origin, at an exhibition I'll smile the wry smile of a true deviant and move on. Basically, I just don't let it get to me, there's quite simply more to life, and if someone's socially unaware or inept, then that's their cross to bear.

 

 

They will try and reel off their mind field of knowledge about a particular dent that was in the side of a loco. What annoys me is that they spoil it for other people and they forget that at one point they were not so knowledgeable.

Do they spoil it for other people? That's a matter of opinion, and judging by some well-reasoned contributions above, the answer is no. Trolling for a tabloid reaction could be construed as spoiling for something unhelpful on a forum like this - without having searched and read the previous debates on this same topic first. Bear in mind that like every troll worthy of its rickety bridge, there will be people previously moderated on here for taking their rivet counting to antisocial levels.

 

A youngster would be put off of the hobby by these sorts of people. Model Railways is an interpretation of life sized thing it is not a real railway. Don’t get me wrong I love to see an amazing layout that is identical to lifesize just in miniature but normally these sorts of modellers won’t try and preach that that is how it should be done.

Would a youngster be put off? Why not poll the youngsters on here (if you can define youngster, of course - newcomer/ returnee to the hobby might be more relevant) and ask what they think, assuming that first of all we've sorted your rivet-counting bores from the well-informed (not self-appointed, note) specialists in their field, so we know about whom we're opining.

 

Like Wit/2 I don't tend to like to get involved with these threads, but you stuck your head above the parapet on your second (?) post.

[Talltim]

You missed one Charlie, third bodyside panel from the left, top row.

I think it's fallen off onto the cloth in front of the model

[crankycalf]

wow, some interesting reactions. for the record tho i wasn't saying that it is a bad thing for people to have alot of knowledge about a subject, that is a good thing so that the knowledge can be passed on IF requested, i was saying that i dont like someone trying to find the negative with everything. i was obviously deliberately doing a bit of stirring but i was interested to find out what people thought.

[davefrk]

Does the OP not realise that without these rivet counters we would still have 1960s Tri-ang Jinties with flangless wheels and moulded handrails or Class 31 diesels that have only two axles on a supposedly three axle bogie..... It's the people who do know the protoype that have encouraged the manufacturers to 'up' their game.

I look at the trophy winning kit built locos I did twenty/thirty years ago and think, that's still a nice model because I put on extra details or corrected faults but then I look at what Hornby or Bachmann etc. are now doing and in some ways these RTR models are even better....

So we all should be grateful for the 'Rivet counter', at least the 'clean' ones....

 

All the best,

Dave Frk.

Once accused of being a 'Rivet Counter' for putting lamp irons on the 'new' Airfix 4F......

[Jol Wilkinson]

Crankycalf,

 

what winds me up is those "modellers" who are happy to accept mediocrity and classify anyone that seeks to create more realistic models as rivet counters. Perhaps they have developed some kind of inferiority complex and the only way they can deal with it is through critiscising others.

 

As Chard has alluded to, social bores come in all sorts, not just those interested in getting the detail right. Too often people deride those that model in other scales or gauges, etc. for no good reason. Some kind of inverted snobbery perhaps? (for real snobbery, talk to a GWR enthusiast )

 

Ans something else that winds me up is those who, without good reason, abuse the written (and spoken) English language - but then I'll probably be accused of being a full-stop counter.

[Guest dilbert]

When I was at Didcot for the "Two Kings" event, I was able to see that a Hawksworth tender had 27 rivets along the base of each side, plus a further 9 across the base at the rear.

 

Nah, that's a rivet encounter of a base 3rd kind - an entirely different concept and experience... dilbert

[Sailor Charon]

What is a "mind field of knowledge" anyway?

 

Ooh, ooh, I think I know this. It's got cauliflowers in it. After all, they look like brains...

Or maybe it's like on the underground 'Mind the field of knowledge'?

Sorry. I'm in a silly mood.

[Andy Y]

i was obviously deliberately doing a bit of stirring

 

I think you may be looking for quite a short route to the back door. I answered your OP in the spirit of addressing potential naivety, in fact it was posted in this section which requires active action by one of the team to let the subject matter through. I was being charitable and approved it but if I'd known that was the intention it wouldn't have even appeared.

 

Don't try and wind people up; they can do it on their own when they choose to.

 

For the benefit of saving anyone's wasted time on someone who posted to solicit a reaction I'll close this topic off.