Welcome to the Waverley Route Resource Room

[DaveArkley]

Excellent work, Dave. There are possibly some caption blunders in the originals, so when I get a minute I'll run a health-check for you.

 

If you wish I can provide similar data for Caplan, Bradford Barton, and a couple of the other standard works.

 

Absolutely, the more the merrier!

 

Cheers

Dave

[62440]

Nice to see you've filtered out 80122 on page 76 from the Cross book.

 

Bruce

[DaveArkley]

Nice to see you've filtered out 80122 on page 76 from the Cross book.

 

Bruce

 

 

I filtered it out because the picture isn't dated. Is there some other reason you are hinting at?

[fegguk]

Yesterday I bought and by the early hours of this morning read David Spavens book Waverley Route, Life, Death and Rebirth.

 

 

It gives an excellent account of deeply flawed closure decision which with some better judgement from all concerned and a bit of luck could have gone the other way. Closure was by no means a simple case of being economically inevitable or politically irresistible nor was the status quo either practicable or desirable.

 

It equally well relates the story of the rebirth, a process which has also proved to be far from straight forward. Reading this chapter explains a lot even to someone who has followed the process with interest over the 20 years since someone dared to do any more than wishful thinking.

 

No doubt the reconstruction process and start of the new service will be equally less than smooth.

 

If only we could post a copy of the book back in time to1965 I am sure all those involved would have done things very differently.

 

I would recommend the book to any rail campaigner and it should be compulsory reading all budding politicians with an interest in transport. It contains many valuable lessons for both.

[62440]

 

I am sure all those involved would have done things very differently.

 

 

 

Completely agree. But wouldn't it have been much better if those who hadn't been involved had got involved too! If it hadn't been for Madge Elliot, I think things would have been very muted indeed in Hawick.

 

Bruce

[Guest Max Stafford]

That latter point is certainly writ large in the book, Bruce. It seems the Reiver Spirit was somewhat absent when it was most needed. Seems like 'The Nameless Wonder' in the Area Manager's chair in '65-7 was on an internal sabotage mission too!

Just so wrong.

 

Dave.

[Tim Hale]

Seems like 'The Nameless Wonder' in the Area Manager's chair in '65-7 was on an internal sabotage mission too!

Just so wrong.

 

Dave.

It is doubtful whether the opinion of the Area Manager was sought or even welcome.

 

This was the case when the Area Manager for the Exmouth branch attempted to submit a business plan which demonstrated how the branch could be made to both serve the community and turn a profit - his suggestion was not just ignored, he was admonished for wasting his time on matters outside his Terms of Reference.

 

Tim

[fegguk]

Completely agree. But wouldn't it have been much better if those who hadn't been involved had got involved too! If it hadn't been for Madge Elliot, I think things would have been very muted indeed in Hawick.

 

Bruce

 

Yes that's one of the most important conclusion, inaction is not going to get anything done and its as true today as it was in the 1960's.

 

We are all "involved" in the decisions that affect us so we need to stand up and be counted. Unfortunately too many people are still content to let things be done to them by the powers that be, often on the basis that it’s some else's problem and responsibility to find a solution.

 

As 3 year old I could not do much in 1968. I did get the impression growing up that most people in the Borders thought railways were a thing of the past. The unfortunate thing is that they still think the same thing today and won’t start to think differently until they can't afford the petrol to get to work. Short sightedness is not just something that affects ambitious BR managers and Politicians, the public are just as prone to not looking carefully at what's in front off them.

 

I think the book makes it's clear that the responsibility for the closure was a collective rather than individual failure and that all the actors were motivated by complex reasons and that includes the ordinary man on the Vertish Hill Omibus. It's not a simple Holyrood story of Good vs Evil, the homesteaders are just as fallible as the cattle barons and sadly there was no Lone Ranger to save the day.

[Bernard Lamb]

That latter point is certainly writ large in the book, Bruce. It seems the Reiver Spirit was somewhat absent when it was most needed.

Dave.

 

But as pointed out in the book there was full employment in the border towns and the people were earning a good wage.

As I see things. They were far better off in many ways than the mining and fishing communities a bit to the north.

They had no reason to think that life would change and that the good times would vanish.

I suppose that last sentence could equally apply to other parts of the country/industries in far more recent times.

Having spent around four years as part of a very small group fighting the last government over lost pensions I do have some first hand experience of public apathy. In our case we won.

Bernard

[fegguk]

But as pointed out in the book there was full employment in the border towns and the people were earning a good wage.

As I see things. They were far better off in many ways than the mining and fishing communities a bit to the north.

They had no reason to think that life would change and that the good times would vanish.

I suppose that last sentence could equally apply to other parts of the country/industries in far more recent times.

Having spent around four years as part of a very small group fighting the last government over lost pensions I do have some first hand experience of public apathy. In our case we won.

Bernard

 

 

I think this is a very important point which all relates to public short-sightedness and failure of politicans anticipate the future and to lead us past the difficulties looming round the corner.

 

Even during the early 1980's recession. many people in Hawick were extremely complacent and had very little sympathy for communities elsewhere that were seeing there livelihoods disappear forever. The knitwear workers believed that no one else could make jerseys as well as they could and they were immune from the effect of the decline in traditional industries elsewhere. This was the attitude I detected when (rightly or wrongly and in more hope than expectation) asking people to vote Labour in the Borders during the Thatcher years.

This, I’m all right Jack view, lasted into the 1990’s when the wheels fell of the knitwear and electronics industry. The mighty Dawson International only last week was forced to call the receivers into Barrie Knitwear. Its last remaining business, by coincidence as a result of pension funding issues which can be traced back to the terrible decisions they made elsewhere in the 1990’s.

The second half of the book shows that local campaigning and action can have a leading role in influencing change, though is doesn’t happen overnight. A few well motivated, determined and skilful group of individuals can steer political opinion, if the tide is in their favour. In this day and age the public however take more convincing and some politicians are all to a happy to take advantage of their scepticism. ie the Borders Party and luke warm Lamont.

[Bernard Lamb]

I think this is a very important point which all relates to public short-sightedness and failure of politicans anticipate the future and to lead us past the difficulties looming round the corner.

 

 

The classic example of this, going from memory rather than looking up the actual words quoted, was the attitude of both major political parties to the availability of cheap petrol.

Bernard

[Guest Max Stafford]

It's truly a fascinating and enlightening book ( as well as a bit painful to read on occasion!) and the discussion that's going on here is every bit as interesting. Thanks gents.

 

Tim your points in relation to the AM at Exmouth are noted, but the individual discussed at Hawick seems to have been hostile to any suggestion that might have improved the route's marketability. He appears to have been succeeded by one of more positive outlook, but by that stage it was far too late; Marylebone and the Ministry knew what they wanted and nothing was going to deflect them at that late stage.

The overall conclusion though was that the route was killed as much by apathy and complacency.

 

Though the 1980s were a thoroughly awful time in my opinion, one good thing to come out of them was the growing realisation that things we valued had to be defended and nurtured (and occasionally fought for) in order that we should continue to enjoy them. In our sphere of interest, the Settle-Carlisle is perhaps the shining example of this. What a shame the route couldn't have hung on another couple of years, I'm sure it could have survived in some form if it made it into the 1970s.

 

 

Dave.

[37175]

The brief mention of WRHA in the book, which some may or may not have reached, does warrant a wee explanation.

 

David muses over the fact we based ourselves at Whitrope and created a heritage railway in the middle of nowhere, and that we should have done this on the section somewhere north of Hawick which would have generated more publicity etc for the reinstatement of the railway.

 

To be perfectly frank, we didn't have a choice and we didn't start out to create a heritage railway. Two of the founder members lived at Whitrope, not north of Hawick. The Forestry Commission own the trackbed at Whitrope and WRHA could obtain permissions & leases, whereas north of Hawick this wouldn't have been possible due to multiple private ownership.

 

It's as simple as that, but David didn't contact us to ask about why we did what we did & where we did it ... but I hope this clears it up for anyone who reads that section.

[Newcastleton P.Way]

 

David muses over the fact we based ourselves at Whitrope and created a heritage railway in the middle of nowhere, and that we should have done this on the section somewhere north of Hawick which would have generated more publicity etc for the reinstatement of the railway.

 

 

Na, quite happy where we are thanks. There's a reason why Siviter's masterwork devotes so many pages to the wilds of the Cheviots and so few between Hawick and Gala. Perhaps with our business heads screwed on we would have held out for another spot, but that would've taken all the fun out of it!!!

 

Shame we only get a brief mention, given we were first to return passenger trains to the line.

 

Newcastleton P.Way is modelling the Waverley Route in 1:1 scale

[Iain Mac]

He also goes on to say later on that Newcastleton was starved of vital tourism etc etc.

 

We're giving it back and can well demonstrate the bang and bucks brought in from members and work parties alone let alone tourism.

Mind, I do my best to keep the pubs going on my own.

 

Mac.

[Tim Hale]

Though the 1980s were a thoroughly awful time in my opinion, one good thing to come out of them was the growing realisation that things we valued had to be defended and nurtured (and occasionally fought for) in order that we should continue to enjoy them. In our sphere of interest, the Settle-Carlisle is perhaps the shining example of this. What a shame the route couldn't have hung on another couple of years, I'm sure it could have survived in some form if it made it into the 1970s.

 

 

Dave.

Dave,I am baffled by the notion that a route which survived Beeching should succumb in the 80's, surely it had already proved its worth to both the local community and to the train operator? However, I agree that the overall conclusion though was that the route was killed as much by apathy and complacency, we do not appreciate the value of an asset until it is no longer available.Tim

[Sir Visto]

Does anybody know why Stobs Station had such a huge ticket office?

[Bon Accord]

If memory serves Stobs also served an Army camp, so presumably would have seen a lot of traffic.

[62440]

I think the answer to the question will lie in what West Register House (I know it's moved recently and the name changed) had in its vaults. When researching the Langholm branch twenty-odd years ago, the alterations to the station buildings were noted chapter and verse with annotated plans.

 

I assume that when Stobs opened it would have a "normal" size booking office and with luck, any changes to the buildings will have been recorded and the revised plans deposited and preserved in Edinburgh.

 

I'm guessing, but I think that most military trains with hundreds of soldiers could have used the sidings at Stobs Camp and that a communal ticket/advice note covering all the soldiers &c would be in order and hence use of the ticket office at Stobs station would be avoided. However, on leave days, no doubt wishing to escape the delights of rural Stobs, personnel would trudge up to Stobs station and purchase tickets there. It doesn't take a lot of imagination visualising a queue forming and hence the need for a re-build of the original ticket office.

 

I can recall in the early 50s, Hawick swarming on a Saturday with soldiers - what stuck in my memory was the number of Army left-hand-drive lorries (and tanks!) - perhaps a few soldiers did use the train, 'though.

 

A visit to Edinburgh would - hopefully - answer your question.

 

Another thought, 'though. If records exist of ticket sales at Stobs, it would be worthwhile looking at, say, a period of five years before the camp opened, and then at intervals after the camp was opened to see what the trend in ticket sales was. An return LNER Furlough ticket from Stobs to Hawick from 1955 was on eBay recently.

 

I don't know if it helps or hinders, but in April 1903, it's recorded that "120 men were engaged on alterations at Acreknowe, further "it is probable that the present Stobs station may in due course be shifted..." .

 

... looks like a visit to Edinburgh is a must!

 

Bruce

[Sir Visto]

I think the answer to the question will lie in what West Register House (I know it's moved recently and the name changed) had in its vaults. When researching the Langholm branch twenty-odd years ago, the alterations to the station buildings were noted chapter and verse with annotated plans.

 

I assume that when Stobs opened it would have a "normal" size booking office and with luck, any changes to the buildings will have been recorded and the revised plans deposited and preserved in Edinburgh.

 

I'm guessing, but I think that most military trains with hundreds of soldiers could have used the sidings at Stobs Camp and that a communal ticket/advice note covering all the soldiers &c would be in order and hence use of the ticket office at Stobs station would be avoided. However, on leave days, no doubt wishing to escape the delights of rural Stobs, personnel would trudge up to Stobs station and purchase tickets there. It doesn't take a lot of imagination visualising a queue forming and hence the need for a re-build of the original ticket office.

 

I can recall in the early 50s, Hawick swarming on a Saturday with soldiers - what stuck in my memory was the number of Army left-hand-drive lorries (and tanks!) - perhaps a few soldiers did use the train, 'though.

 

A visit to Edinburgh would - hopefully - answer your question.

 

Another thought, 'though. If records exist of ticket sales at Stobs, it would be worthwhile looking at, say, a period of five years before the camp opened, and then at intervals after the camp was opened to see what the trend in ticket sales was. An return LNER Furlough ticket from Stobs to Hawick from 1955 was on eBay recently.

 

I don't know if it helps or hinders, but in April 1903, it's recorded that "120 men were engaged on alterations at Acreknowe, further "it is probable that the present Stobs station may in due course be shifted..." .

 

... looks like a visit to Edinburgh is a must!

 

Bruce

 

Thanks Bruce,

 

From what I remember these leave-warrants had to be exchanged at the ticket offices for normal train tickets so I suspect you're right.

 

Roy

[Bon Accord]

Roy,

Still the same today. MOD issues many Rail Warrants for staff/forces personnel travelling, and these have to be exchanged at a booking office for a ticket as they're not valid for travel. They could also be exchanged with Guards onboard, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

[Sir Visto]

Roy,

Still the same today. MOD issues many Rail Warrants for staff/forces personnel travelling, and these have to be exchanged at a booking office for a ticket as they're not valid for travel. They could also be exchanged with Guards onboard, but I'm not sure if that's still the case.

 

Thought so but what chance of getting to the Guard between Stobs and Hawick.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Roy

[37175]

The long-awaited reprint (3rd edition) of Kit Milligan's acclaimed book "Riccarton Junction - Just a Few Lines" will soon be available from the WRHA webshop. Priced at £9.50, this latest edition features many more photographs of Riccarton including the village houses. It also features maps of the area and the village itself which have not featured in any previous editions

Limited edition copies of the new book will be made available at the forthcoming dinner at Newcastleton on Sunday 5th January, where Lord David Steel will be recounting this memories of the closure night, (see here for details) followed soon after by general availability at http://wrha.org.uk/the-association/merchandise/

 

 

The Adobe e-book (2nd edition) is still available from the WRHA webshop priced at £4.

[coronach]

There is a new Transacord website http://www.transacord.co.uk/catalog/ which is re-releasing the Peter Handfords' railway sound recordings in MP3 format.  This includes 'Railways to Riccarton' and other LPs including sounds of the Waverley Route from the 1950s and 1960s. 

 

I bought 'North of Kings Cross' this week, which includes recordings of K3s at Whitrope summit and a D49 at Steele Road.  Wonderful stuff :-)

 

['CHARD]

A D49 at Steele Road - poetry in motion!

 

Thanks for the tip-off!