Mix & Matching coaches

[br-nse-fan]

Hi All,

 

Was wondering how prototypical it would be to find types of coaches mixed together? I know things like Collett's & Hawksworths would be found mixed up... but what about Hawksworths & Maunsells?

 

The majority of my steam era stock (read: mostly my Dad's) run in semi-fixed rakes, usually of the same type of coach. What I would like to do is spice things up, if you will... instead of having a solid uniform rake of coaches.. add a little variety.

 

I've searched the interwebs, and although I am sure the resources I am seeking are there, I've not been able to locate what I am looking for. With that being said, I would like to ask the community what they would consider 'accurate', or at the very least 'looks right'.

 

My Dad's layout is based loosely in the old Somerset & Dorset region, with an operating era of the 1940's - early 1960's allowing for the big four upto early green diesels. Branch and local rakes are the typical 2-3 coaches in lenght, and mainline / express trains can be upto 6 coaches in length.

 

The coaching stock we have is as follows (quantity of coaches):

 

SR Green Bullied (4)

SR Green Maunsell (12)

GWR Collett (10)

GWR Clestory ( 8 )

GWR Centenary (7)

BR Green Bullied (4)

BR Green Maunsell (16)

BR Green MK1 (5)

BR Maroon Stanier (6)

BR Maroon Collett (2)

BR Crimson / Cream ex-LNER* (4)

BR Chocolate / Cream MK1 (4)

Steel Body Pullman (10+)

Matchboard Pullman (10+)

 

I'm sure I've missed something, but I believe that's the majority. We also have a large number of siphon G, H (and one Monster!) and various mail & parcel vans to augment the trains.

Stock that we are considering adding, not in full rakes, but to add to what we already have:

 

BR Maroon Hawksworth

BR Crimson / Cream Hawksworth

BR Crimson / Cream Maunsell

BR Maroon Thompson

BR Crimson / Cream Thompson

BR Crimson / Cream Collett

 

Any thoughts, suggestions? All are welcome, as I am unsure what would have been found mixed up, or left in sets.

 

Many thanks, as always!

 

Derek

 

*Not sure what they are, but they are not teak's or Thompsons, that much I know.

[Karhedron]

It depends what you are trying to represent. If you are modelling a named express then efforts were usually made to run consistent rakes (often in matching livery if possible). If you are modelling a summer saturday excursion then almost anything goes and rakes could be cobbled together from whatever (ancient) stock was available.

 

Some guidelines may be helpful. Full-brakes were very useful vehicles and frequently wandered. It was not that uncommon to see a full brake from one region on another (Gresley and Stannier types in particular tended to roam widely). The Southern tended to operate it's stock in semi-permenant formations (usually BKT-CK-BKT on mainline rakes) so these would be unlikely to be broken up.

 

Beyond that you can probably find a prototype for most things. The WR frequently mixed Collett, Hawksworth and Mk1 suburban stock fairly indescriminately.

[Kris]

Many GWR coaches ran in sets but these normally consisted of a complete hochpotch of coaches from different era's and designers. There are also lots of incidents of GWR stock mixing with LMS / LNER coaches on cross country services.

[Pennine MC]

I've searched the interwebs, and although I am sure the resources I am seeking are there, I've not been able to locate what I am looking for. With that being said, I would like to ask the community what they would consider 'accurate', or at the very least 'looks right'.

 

I'm sure this will be seen as a 'left field' suggestion these days but how about looking at some books to get ideas? At most shows you cant move for secondhand picture albums, Bradford Bartons in particular contain a great selection of 50s and 60s shots. As Karhedron says, secondary services could be almost a free-for-all; it wasnt unknown for pre-BR designs to be transferred between Regions (e.g Staniers to the Western, Thompsons to the LMR) and they would then be seen as equivalent to the corresponding 'local' type.

[Fat Controller]

Have a trawl through Robert Carroll's Flicker site:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/

There are quite a few shots of mixed rakes in amongst all the other stuff. Be aware that there's an awful lot of potential distractions...

Trains from Cornwall/Devon and the north seemed to be mainly of ex-GWR/LMS stock, well into the 1960s. I've even seen shots in books of blue/grey Mark 1 stock mixed in with everything else.

Those from the SR to the NE and v/v tended to be rakes of SR or LNER stock, though they often had a selection of vans from all companies attached.

The WR expresses from Birkenhead to London in the early '60s often had Thompson stock (transferred to the WR) in amongst the BR Mk1s.

[phil-b259]

In general the coaching designs of the big four didn't stray outside their owning regions and when they did it was as a complete train rather than indavidual vehicles. Thus Maunsell and Bullied designs could well apear in the same train, however it would be extreamley unlikley to have say an ex GWR coach in the formation (with the possable exception of things like parcels vans / full brakes). Similarly a mixed ex GWR rake of Hawksworths & Collett designs was quite common but such a rake would not usually include ex SR, LMS, or LNER vhicles

 

Aditionally ex SR & LNER stock were fitted with buckeyes and 'pullman' gangways as were BRs MK1s. The LMS & GWR on the other hand used British standard gangways which required adapators if such a coach was to be coupled to a 'pullman' type. This was a further disencentive to mixing former big four coaches, and it also means that MK1s were used far more flexably on the Southern and Eastern Regions due to their compatability with the pre grouping designs found on these regions. On the other hand, at least initally, the Western and Midland tended to keep their MK1s together in sets as much as possable due to the need to fit adaptors to LMS / GWR designs if coupled next to a MK1

[Kris]

Similarly a mixed ex GWR rake of Hawksworths & Collet designs was quite common but such a rake would not usually include ex SR, LMS, or LNER vehicles

 

 

Down in the Southwest trains of mixed coaching stock were used. This generally occurred when coaches were brought long distances in a non mixed train before portions were sent on to their final destinations, as such you could find 2 or 3 LMS coaches attached to a GWR train. There were also occasions where ex LNER coaches in the same rake as ex LMS coaches running to Torbay.

 

As Phil says this was not overly common, mainly occurring on summer services.

 

 

[br-nse-fan]

Great answers all!

 

Many thanks! Was kinda hoping to see some 'every day' traffic that had some mixed stock, but other than mixing the GWR coaches up, looks like the remaining sets will stay as is.

 

A question on the centenary stock.. would that have stayed together, or would it have been mixed in the Colletts & Hawksworths? Also, the Clestory stock, albeit old.. could they have found themselves into rakes with Colletts?

 

Again, thanks for all the input!

 

Derek

[Nick Holliday]

No-one seems to have mentioned the different liveries. I would suggest that it would be very unlikely to see any of the pre-1948 liveries mixed in a train of Mk1's in the later regional colours, marooon or chocolate and cream, as they would probably have been repainted by that time, but they could mix happily with any crimson and cream stock. This latter could also mix freely with the later colours - I am not quite sure whether the Southern entirely abandoned the green livery, although plenty of their stock appeared in crimson with or without the cream, often in the same train.

I am with those who say that almost anything can go - recently an article on a GWR branch in the south west showed an LNER non-corridor coach as part of the regular make-up and various GWR and LNER designs were transferred to the Southern Region for various reasons, as well as there being plenty of visiting stock. I would suggest having perhaps a pair of interlopers from the same region, to represent a through portion attached to the regular local train.

On the Southern, at least, odd Pullmans can be inserted in trains of green coaches, and, on the other hand, a few normal coaches could be hung behind a Pullman train, to cater for those customers who weren't prepared to pay the supplement.

[br-nse-fan]

No-one seems to have mentioned the different liveries. I would suggest that it would be very unlikely to see any of the pre-1948 liveries mixed in a train of Mk1's in the later regional colours, marooon or chocolate and cream, as they would probably have been repainted by that time, but they could mix happily with any crimson and cream stock. This latter could also mix freely with the later colours - I am not quite sure whether the Southern entirely abandoned the green livery, although plenty of their stock appeared in crimson with or without the cream, often in the same train.

 

Hi Nick

 

I agree, that running a GWR Collett in a train of BR Maroon MK1's would stand out line a sore thumb... and although GWR & SR liveries run side by side with BR liveries, I was not planning or intending to mix them up (well, maybe Maroon w/ Crimson / Cream, ect..)

 

I was looking more for info on if a Crimson / Cream Thompson could have ever been mixed up in a rake of Crimson / Cream Bullieds... ect... or even some Maroon Collett's with Crimson / Cream >insert non-WR stock here<.

 

Thanks again!

[Coach bogie]

There was a regular mix of GWR/SR coaches on the services between Brighton and Portsmouth to Bristol and Cardiff. Mix of Maunsell and Collett stock was commonplace. Loco wise the SR and GWR had reciprocal arrangements with SR U moguls appearing at Bristol on a regular basis. Photographs appear in the Great Western Steam in the 30's vol 1&2 plus Middleton and other publications.

 

As mentioned above the GWR also mixed with other companies. Through coaches to Liverpool and Manchester often resulted in Streamlined Coronations heading south with a GWR Collet immediately behing the tender.

 

GWR stock turned up in Newcastle upon Tyne on a daily basis coupled to NE stock having travelled from Swansea.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

[RJS1977]

I know where a Collet coach, a Hawksworth, three Mk1s and a Siphon can still all be seen in close proximity.....

 

Richard

[bbishop]

No-one seems to have mentioned the different liveries. I would suggest that it would be very unlikely to see any of the pre-1948 liveries mixed in a train of Mk1's in the later regional colours, marooon or chocolate and cream, as they would probably have been repainted by that time, but they could mix happily with any crimson and cream stock. This latter could also mix freely with the later colours - I am not quite sure whether the Southern entirely abandoned the green livery, although plenty of their stock appeared in crimson with or without the cream, often in the same train.

I am with those who say that almost anything can go - recently an article on a *** branch in the south west showed an LNER non-corridor coach as part of the regular make-up and various *** and LNER designs were transferred to the Southern Region for various reasons, as well as there being plenty of visiting stock. I would suggest having perhaps a pair of interlopers from the same region, to represent a through portion attached to the regular local train.

On the Southern, at least, odd Pullmans can be inserted in trains of green coaches, and, on the other hand, a few normal coaches could be hung behind a Pullman train, to cater for those customers who weren't prepared to pay the supplement.

 

 

Firstly can I congratulate phil_b259 on an accurate and coherent explanation in post #9. However Nick asks some supplementary questions. Regarding liveries, my response refers only to the Southern Region (SR) and is lifted from Mike King's book "An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches". The SR began painting new coaches in crimson / cream in September 1949. By 1956 60-70% of SR steam stock was in crimson or crimson / cream, when the regions were given greater latitude with liveries. The SR immediately reverted to a slightly darker green than Bulleid's malachite so that by 1960 very little stock was in the crimson liveries. The other regions didn't react to the same extent.

 

Historically the LBSC and the SECR contracted out their catering services to the Pullman company. The LSWR provided the catering stock but they were staffed by Spiers and Pond. I'm sure some of the "northern" companies had similar contracts but I am very much a Southern man. This is why one saw odd Pullmans on some lines but not others.

[Il Grifone]

Generally, as stated, coaches tended to stay on their own region, apart from through services, which could consist of anything from a single coach to a whole traim and some which were transferred between regions*. Apart from the different gangways, which tended to keep coaches together, they were mixed fairly well - a coach was added as and when required and the first suitable was used. There was no desire to shunt them around to keep the same types together, even if the time was available! There would be no problem with a Collett coach in a rake of Mk 1s (apart from needing two gangway adapters, and it could be crimson and cream in a maroon rake or vice versa.

 

Clerestories had more or less disappeared by the early fifties, except possibly in departmental use. (They would have been 50+ years old) and the Centenaries were restricted to ex GWR main lines, by reason of their size.

 

I believe the ex LNER coach on the WR branch was chosen for its compatibility with sharp curves

 

* These would probably be numbered eg WXXXXM for an ex LMS coach on the Western Region.

[chrisf]

Pennine's recommendation to look at photos is absolutely right. I have before me the latest Great Western Railway Journal so let's do exactly that.

 

On the front cover is a photo showing a Castle arriving at Paddington with a Hawksworth brake second and Mk 1 composite at the head of its train. The rest of that train is concealed by a 94xx pannier hauling a rake of empties largely comprising Gresleys. On the rear cover we find a 61xx arriving with more ECS of which the first two vehicles are a Thompson and a Stanier. This would have been at about 1 pm for also shown is the up Red Dragon with a Mk 1 BG in chocolate and cream heading the formation. Both shots were taken on a summer Saturday in 1961.

 

Most of the black and white pics accompanying the major article on Paddington were taken in the late 40s and early 50s. In these, GW design coaches are almost universal [except for a Gresley BG] but search not for uniform rakes for you will search in vain. The nearest to that particular holy grail is a shot of the 1.15 to Bristol which is formed predominantly of Hawksworth stock but not completely for there were no Hawksworth catering vehicles. One shot shows a suburban set strengthened with a corridor coach.

 

When we return to 1961 and colour the fun starts again. The 4.25 am off Fishguard Harbour leads with three Mk 1s in three different liveries, followed by one Thompson and two Gresleys: the rest of the train is out of sight.

 

Re the Centenary stock - some of it turned up on branch lines towards the end of its life but these tended to be those originally built to broad gauge where clearances were that much more generous.

 

Chris

[bbishop]

If I could extend my theme in post #13, the Southern Railway and Southern Region (SR) ran a lot of its stock in fixed rakes with the set number on the ends. These were maintained, and therefore painted as a unit, but there could be interesting strengthening of four coach sets for the summer services. For example, a Bulleid set in crimson / cream could be increased to eight coaches by the insertion of four green Standard corridor seconds. These weren't a block but spread throughout the set to ensure the first class accommodation remained in the centre.

 

Bill

[br-nse-fan]

Once again, many thanks for all the excellent info!

 

One last question.. and that is how I would make up a realistic looking rake of GWR coaches?

 

The coaches I have now are Clestory, Centenary and Collett's.

 

I don't believe the Clestory and Centenary would have been mixed with Collett's, especially leaving GW metals and running into SR territory... so other than Hawksworths, what else is avaliable RTR to achieve the 'hodgepodge' look of GWR trains? I'm staying away from the Hornby version of the Colletts, for obvious reasons.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Derek

[Il Grifone]

There have not been all that many GWR R-T-R coaches available. ( Ducks to avoid shouts of protest )

 

Ignoring things from the Dark Ages, like the products of Exley and Hamblings, the Hornby Dublo Restaurant Car and TPO van and the Tri-ang clerestories*, there are the Hornby 1920s 57' Colletts** (Restaurant Car - a useful vehicle and incidentally basically the same prototype as the Dublo coach - 1st/3rd and Bk/3rd), the Hornby Clerestories (Bk/3rd and 2nd/3rd later full 3rd - not strictly correct as a 3rd I gather as some modification was carried out - and the mouldings are missing!), the Airfix/Hornby Centenaries***, the Mainline?Bachmann 1930s Colletts (Bk/3rd and full 3rd - some are marked 1st/3rd but they're not, as all the compartments are the same size!) and the new Hornby Hawksworths, which are really BR vehicles as most were built after 1/1/48.

 

*Still available - have been sold as Engineering stock (OK), Midland Railway (wrong type of clerestory for a start!) and LNER, but are approximations of GWR stock - a bit of cut and shut and new bogies improves matters, but they are not really appropriate to your period anyway.

 

**As you are aware these have many shortcomings, which is a pity as they are ideal general purpose coaches - new ends and roofs work wonders.

 

***An odd choice of vehicle, seeing their restricted use and the large number of variations required to make a full train - these two only provide one of the through portions. They could be freely mixed with other coaches however, apart from their route restrictions (I'd just say that my line has the clearances required for their passage and run them anyway! )

 

Really you can only add the odd Mk I into your trains to add variety, though a mixture of crimson and cream, maroon and even the odd chocolate and cream - supposedly only for named trains* but seen in general service - will help. An inter-regional train could well well have stock from both regions.

*All stock with the BR crest was also supposedly for named trains, but again a rule mainly observed in the breach...

 

I've purposely ignored the various Mk Is and (supposedly Caledonian coaches, which have appeared in pre-nationalisation liveries - these are bin (or eBay) material - IMHO they are not even worth the trouble of repainting into BR livery.

[Etched Pixels]

I believe the ex LNER coach on the WR branch was chosen for its compatibility with sharp curves

 

Clearances more than just curves limit coach length. Hemyock got various odd coaches from different places including a re-panneled ex Barry coach retrofitted with gas lights and then I believe then a BR(E) 51' suburban coach to LNER design.

[br-nse-fan]

Hey All

 

Thanks again for all the helpful info...

 

Looks like augmenting my fleet with RTR is out of the question (for now)...

 

What are some suggestions for inexpensive kits? Assembly is not a problem, but my painting skills are less than spectacular...

 

Looking for suggestions to mix in with my existing fleet of Collett, Centenaries and Clestory coaches.

 

Thanks again!

 

Derek

[Il Grifone]

As I recall the only inexpensive (i.e. plastic) coach kits were the Kitmaster Mk Is - still plentiful - and a Mailcoach GWR full brake (K22 IIRC). Also the KIrk LNER and SR coaches. (I'm not sure of present availability/supplier)

More expensively there are/were (again not sure of current availability), Slaters have GWR clerestories and Coopercraft MK Is.

 

Then you go to the etched kits. Comet, for example, have quite a range of GWR coaches. (The trouble here is they make the plastic coaches look inferior.)

 

Ratio do GWR 4 wheelers in plastic and K's produced a 4 wheel third and 6 wheel clerestory*. (These two are white metal and thus heavy and now difficult to find as they've been out of production for many years.) 4 and 6 wheel coaches, like clerestories, had all disappeared by the early fifties and most long before.

 

* They also did LNWR 6 wheel and LBSCR 4 wheel coaches and GWR autocoach and B set as kits.

 

I'm always hoping Hornby will retool their 57 foot Colletts and add a full third to the range. (LH and RH brakes and composites would be perhaps too much to ask.)

 

A possibility would be to include a B set in the train, but these were not really long distance coaches. Available R-T-R from Hornby (ex Airfix).

[br-nse-fan]

 

I'm always hoping Hornby will retool their 57 foot Colletts and add a full third to the range. (LH and RH brakes and composites would be perhaps too much to ask.)

 

 

Or... for someone to bite the bullet and introduce some NEW models... such as the 70' coaches... the longest on the network until the MK3's come into service!

 

Toplights or otherwise would be nice too..

[Il Grifone]

Or... for someone to bite the bullet and introduce some NEW models... such as the 70' coaches... the longest on the network until the MK3's come into service!

 

Toplights or otherwise would be nice too..

 

 

We can but hope!

I have a PC models Toplight brake/composite and a King's Cross 70' 1922 composite that are both long past their sell by date. My CCW clerestory Is awaiting the retooling of the Hornby ones.

 

(Why did they select Hawksworth coaches? There weren't all that many and they are yet more BR stock. (I know a w1$hl1t!)

[br-nse-fan]

We can but hope!

I have a PC models Toplight brake/composite and a King's Cross 70' 1922 composite that are both long past their sell by date. My CCW clerestory Is awaiting the retooling of the Hornby ones.

 

(Why did they select Hawksworth coaches? There weren't all that many and they are yet more BR stock. (I know a w1$hl1t!)

 

I don't know about being past their sell by date... I was watching a set of three PC Model Toplight coaches on eBay, and they went for almost $100... some kit built Hawksworths are currently at more than $80...

 

I agree about the Hawksworths... maybe I might be able to squeeze one or two of the 3rd cladd GWR liveried ones in, as I do believe Adrien Wintle of this site said they could have been found in GWR livery, before BR took over.

[Kris]

I agree about the Hawksworths... maybe I might be able to squeeze one or two of the 3rd cladd GWR liveried ones in, as I do believe Adrien Wintle of this site said they could have been found in GWR livery, before BR took over.

 

 

Most of the Hawksworths were built in the BR era so never received a GWR livery so you would need to be a little careful about this.

 

As an side, earlier today I was watching a video of a what may be a non corridor midland coach being used with corridor midland stock. Although the footage does not show the full train* there is a very good chance that there was a B set attached to the back of this. This was from 1959 and was filmed in darkest Devon on the Kingsbridge line.

 

 

 

 

* There is a brief glimpse showing 1 or 2 coaches more.