Where and Why?

[R A Watson]

Thanks Mike, that adds a lot of detail to both my suppositions and knowledge.

 

The curve we have been discussing is totally on embankment and there is no sign of earthworks leading directly into the naval site, this is to the west side of the curve and the G W shed site is on the other (east) side ie. they are divided by the railway embankment.

 

Both the connection you mention specified by Larry and the later G W conection to the shed you mention appear to be on the same alignment, aproximately a precursor to the third side of the current triangle which passes through the modern depot, the approach track passing through the bridge (and under the S R line) I postulated matches the line from the G W slip to the naval site which you say Larry reports.

 

The Quadrupling scheme as you say was never completed and I must admit to having forgotten to allow for this in my considerations leading to the "Red Herring" re the Laira Green site, this I gladly withdraw.

 

On the mastter of the processing of explosives on the site, most of my pictures were taken from on top of a strange bowl shaped earthwork knowm locally as the Lipson Arena; the reason for the existance of which I have never been able to understand until now. It is obviously the blast wall which would have surrounded the munitions workshops.

 

What a strange and convulated process the gaining of knowledge is.

[The Stationmaster]

The curve we have been discussing is totally on embankment and there is no sign of earthworks leading directly into the naval site, this is to the west side of the curve and the G W shed site is on the other (east) side ie. they are divided by the railway embankment.

 

Both the connection you mention specified by Larry and the later G W conection to the shed you mention appear to be on the same alignment, aproximately a precursor to the third side of the current triangle which passes through the modern depot, the approach track passing through the bridge (and under the S R line) I postulated matches the line from the G W slip to the naval site which you say Larry reports.

 

 

Yes I realise (well know actually, it's not all that far from the church I got married - as the crow flies) it's on embankment at that end of No.I Curve but looking on Google satellite view it is possible going on the information below to roughly work out where the siding dropped from the west side of the curve towards the factory's sidings, in fact the course of the connection is clearly visible, but perhaps a little inaccurate?) on the 1919 OS map (and the bridge is clearly visible on the 1907 map - with no railway running through it ).

As far as the position of the connections is concerned the 1931 connection into the shed sidings was approximately 320-340 yards from Lipson Jcn signalbox , Speedway Jcn points are 376 yards from the toe of Lipson Jcn points so that does indeed put them roughly in the position of the 1931 connection. The connection into the siding on the west side of No.1 curve would have been no more than c.250-280 yards from Lipson Jcn signalbox (assuming the trailing crossover on No.1 Curve wasn't moved between 1916 and 1931); the precise answer probably lurks somewhere in Tony Cooke's files but as noted above it is in any case visible on the 1919 OS Map.

[R A Watson]

Mike,

 

Sorry, but I missed your reply until now.

 

Having read your text I went to Cassini maps site and down loaded the 1919 map you refer to, now I am even more confused!

 

The connection you refer to appears to drop off the east side of the curve and then pass through a SECOND bridge, the existance of which I was ignorant about until now, then pass behind the earthworks of Lipson arena to form the alignment of Bernice Terrace and associated footpath visible in the Google Earth view. This is on the opposite side of the valley to that which I was focused.

 

It looks like a second Saturday afternoon foray is called for to contnue the investigation, and I was planning a haircut for this week a well,

 

In the words of the old saying "the thick plottens".

 

Will report back further developments A S A P.

[Siberian Snooper]

I have had a look in R. A. Cookes 1947 Great Western Atlas to see if there were any lines added or closed before that date and there is nothing shown as leaving the shed area and crossing number 1 loop..

 

He gives the position of the original Laira Green Station as approximately where Laira Halt was.

 

Hope this may be of some help.

 

SS

[R A Watson]

As promised I spent last Saturday afternoon skulking around the Laira area looking for further clues to assist in this conunderem but have to say that there is no apreciable progress.

 

In order to assist those not so familiar with the site I have drawn up the schematic of the layout shown below

 

 

The site is surounded by three lines, on the left is the G W main line, at the top running paralel with the river is the P & D / Lee Moor tramway line running through the original G W sidings which were the precursor to the Tavistock Junction and Marsh Mills yards we all know whilst coming diagonally up from left to right is the Southern link which Mike and S S referred to as Loop No 1.

 

The connection to the Armament Depot is line No 1 on the drawing, which comes off the G W main and passes through the bridge (No 2) which was the origination of this thread. This is the line shown on the Larry Crosier signalling plans. In order to assist understanding I have also shown the positions of the Diesel Depot and Steam Shed (Nos 6 & 7 respectively) although neither they or their respective trackwork had even been thought of in the period we are discussing.

 

As mentioned previously the 1919 O S map shows a line in a differing position entering the valley on the opposite side, this is shown as No 4. After much scrutiny of the map and the Google Earth image I have concluded it passes between the end of the earthwork I know as Lipson arena (No 3) and the valley side (No 5).

 

My quest on Saturday was to find evidence of this line, the only approach is from the school side and the current railway approach to vegetation management meant that visibility is very restricted. This is the current view.

 

]

 

The concrete path is on what I imagine the alignment would be with the vegetation on the left growing on the truncated earthwork of the arena and the trees on the right growing on the valley side. The path in fact climbs onto the earthwork before swinging to the right and rising to access parkland at the top of the valley side. There does not seem to be sufficient width here to allow the building of a track bed in this area and I was unable to find any evidence of a second bridge in the suspected position. Further perusing of the Google Earth image does not show any form of parapet wall or fencing which you would expect to find on top of a bridge.

 

It must be realised that the topography of the valley bottom has changed over the years as it was used in the 1960s as a municipal tip which leveled the surface, then there was further alteration when the school was built and playing fields laid out.

 

In an attempt to gain a view from the other side I walked along the Embankment Road perimeter of the complex hoping for the oportunity to take a long lens shot but this is not possible, the three large fuel tanks for the depot are situated in front of the most likely location.

 

I am now trying to obtain information from depot staff as to whether there is in fact evidence of a bridge here.

 

Has anyone in this wide rnging group got any more thoughts (or knowledge) on this poser?

[The Stationmaster]

I'm sorry Wally but that doesn't tie up with any of Larry's stuff in his Plymouth signalling book, did he publish some stuff subsequently?. He clearly shows on the Lipson Junction diagram the connection coming off the inside of Curve No.1 and that ties up with the 1919 OrdnanceSurvey map as well looking - as i previously explained - as near as makes no difference to the site of the current Speedway Junction. The angle between the steam shed building as mapped in 1907 would have mmeant that any rail connection going under that bridge would have had to have come off the Down Goods at the Lipson Junction end and no such connection is referred to be Larry - unless he wrote about it after the book was published.

I can't pop round and see Larry nowadays as he unfortunately left for the great lever frame in the sky some time back but if I get a chance in the next week or so i'll try to contact Tony Cooke and see what information he has (he has a massive amount of information on private sidings on the GWR apart from his information on layout details - so he might have some information on this). I'm off to Stafford tomorrow so I won't be able to do any further delving until next week.

[R A Watson]

Mike,

 

I was aware of the demise of Larry, indeed when He and Mary moved from Plymouth to Reading I drove the van taking their furniture up for them, this trip included my first visit to Pendon and the story of another well known west country photographer completeing the journey in an armchair in the back of the Transit luton van will have to be told at a later time!

 

The diagram of the connection I was shown was not in a book but some loose leaf sheets shown to me by a member of the S R S, I should be seeing him tonight and will request a second sighting if possible.

 

Our interpretation of the 1919 map seems to differ so I will send you a blown up copy of my map by P M. I am hesitant to reproduce it here as I am unsure of the copyright position.

[Jan]

Tim,

 

Not realy a plan as such, as I said everyone knows Laira Green was there somewhere, but nobody can pin the exact location down.

 

From The Encyclopedia of Plymouth History:

 

http://www.plymouthd...reen%20Temp.htm

 

Laira Green Temporary Station was located between Plympton and Mutley Stations on the Great Western Railway main line, at a point almost exactly 244 miles from London. It was adjacent to what is today known as Laira Avenue. This was outside the Borough of Plymouth at that time and in fact was on extra-parochial land reclaimed from Laira Creek.

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=laira+green&hl=en&ll=50.383643,-4.102943&spn=0.003489,0.009645&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.26154,39.506836&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A

 

Not sure if this is right.... but interesting thread.... especially as I lived in Laira Avenue between 2008 and July last year....

 

Cheers

 

Jan

[R A Watson]

It's been a long time since I posted any further reports on the problem, but I have not allowed it to go away, indeed just the Thursday after the last post I met my contact in the S R S and "our man in the depot" in the Plymouth M R C clubnight and they both went off to see if anything new could be found.

 

The outcome was confirmation that, as Mike states, there is nothing in the Crosier papers with regard to the original single siding connection, also the aproximate position of my No2 bridge is where the line comes out of a cutting and starts on to the embankment, so there is no headroom for or evidence of a bridge. My man then consulted the records of the depot and found drawings which show a "sewer" passing under the line here, unfortunately the records show that in the depot collection there is a drawing dated 1893 which may give more detail' this appears to be on long term loan to an unknown person.

 

I then turned my attentions to the websites of Cassini Maps and the Old Maps Company who supply PDF down load copies of the back issues of O S maps. After spending considerable time and some money I am now the owner of many maps from the past.

 

This exercise has proved that every one who has contributed comments have been correct but you must treat some details recorded by O S with some caution especially if M O D matters are involved (after all the O S was a branch of the M O D) when National Security is involved.

 

So what did I find?

 

The 1867-9 map shows both the South Devon Railway main line to Millbay and the Plymouth and Dartmoor Tramway on the Embankment together with a single siding in the position I recalled seeing back at the start of this topic.

 

The 1880 1:2.500 map is more distinct and clearly shows this siding coming off the main line aproximately in the area of the later Lauira Junct. and also a second connection on the Exeter side of this forming an interchange siding with the P & D tramway on the Embankment. Interestingly the first siding ends opposite milepost 244 so it may well be the remains of the temporary Laira Green station. Other points of note are a drainage ditch running the length of the valley just where bridge No 2 will be later built, adjacent to this (where the Lipson Arena will later be built) is the annotation "Powder Magazines", this is the only reference to explosives on any of the maps.

 

Another point of note is the existence of a collection of buildings marked Laira Farm on the north side of the man line and a bridge (a forerunner of the Mullet Road bridge) giving access to the fields on the south side.

 

An 1899 larger scale map shows the No 1 curve in position leading into the Friary area with a dotted (possibly planned?) line going over the river towards the South Hams.

 

The 1905 edition shows No1 curve as the GWR Sutton Harbour Branch wth our bridge in position and a further culvert bridge at the other end of the curve allowing the previously mentioned drainage ditch to run into the river. Also shown are the round shed and a sewage works where the Mullet Pond will come later. The farm access bridge is missing in this edition.

 

In 1938 we have both round and long (straight) shed in place with the sewage works missing, replaced by the long shed and the Speedway loop, and the earthworks of the dropping approach to the munitions area is now shown but track is not depicted. A path is shown leading to our bridge at the back of the round shed but not coming out at the other side! The land in the valley is now refered to as Recreation Ground.

 

This then is the detail which can be extracted from the maps but as I stated earlier evidence on the ground cannot be found by simply walking round the site so I tried a modern approach and looked at Google Earth again to see what I may have missed. The vertical view only shows lots of trees obliterating everything but if you change the ange of view to a flatter plane there is a discernable drop of vegetation level along the line of the incline.

 

My conclusions are that the access to the modern explosives site is the incline to the west of No 1 Loop as stated in Larry Crosiers records but the existance of the 1880 powder magazines when there was no adjacent quarrying activities on this side of the river may lead to the conclusion that this is war department related and the single siding is the only way to bring the material to the storage site.

 

As to the reason for our bridge I suspect it was to allow the farmer at Laira Farm to reach his deminishing number of fields as the closer ones were swallowed up by the Loco shed and it's expansions. This will fall into line with the fact that as small boy train spotters we were always told that as long as you stay on the footpath between the main line and the coaling roads you could not be thrown out of he shed as it was a public right of way.