Southern Railway Sections and BR(SR) Divisions

[Guest Belgian]

Can anybody give me a definitive description of the various Sections of the Southern Railway and the Divisions of BR(SR)?

 

I know that the Southern had the Eastern, Central and Western Sections and that BR(SR) had South-Eastern, Central and South-Western Divisions, but I have seen references to the London Division or Section as well as a Suburban Section. I appreciate that the original Sections corresponded to the three constituent companies but do not know if the BR(SR) Divisions were the same as the Sections. Presumably the little lines that came into BR fell into the corresponding Divisions.

 

Also, when did the change of name take place, ie, was it upon Nationalisation or later? (I've seen a suggestion that it was as late as 1963).

 

Many thanks.

 

JE

[Leicester Thumper]

I also think one of the divisions changed hands quite a few times between Western and southern????

 

Sorry I can't help with names, but I know that crops up...

[SRman]

Not so much the whole division but essentially, all the lines west of Salisbury became part of the Western Region - previously they would have been a part of the western /southwestern division.

[Oldddudders]

I joined in 1966, and by then Divisions were well established, having started in 1962, I think, initially with their respective HQs at 19, Worple Road, Wimbledon; Essex House, Croydon; and Queen Street EC1. The latter moved to 1, Albemarle Road, Beckenham in about 1968. It is also possible that the SWD didn't move to Worple Road until some time between 1962 and 1966. Prior to the Divisions (a BR invention) there had been Districts, based I think on Woking, Redhill and Orpington, which were the Southern Railway operational centres back in World War 2, where the initial Controls were established. There was also Deepdene House, Dorking, which was the WW2 SR HQ, complete with underground passages etc. In early 1966 I cleaned the windows there as a schoolboy weekend job, but there were hardly any staff there by then, and it was demolished by 1970.

 

These 3 Divisions identified above dealt principally with day-to-day traffic and operating matters. Main Southern Railway HQ was at Waterloo, but engineering was spread all over the place. Even when I joined there was, for example, a chap called the London East District Engineer (dealing with both Permanent Way & Works I think) based at Purley, which would have put him plum in the middle of the Central Division! By this stage, engineering and accountancy were centred upon Southern House, Wellesley Grove, Croydon (aka Network Technical Centre for up to a decade from 1986), but from the late '60s there was a move to make engineering boundaries co-terminus with the Traffic Divisions, so when the Beckenham Divisional Office opened in 1968, there was a Divisional Civil Engineer's organisation on the 4th and 5th floors. There was also a Divisional Traction Engineer team at Albemarle Road, and, located in Croydon, a Divisional Signal Engineer and Divisonal Power Supply Engineer. All these engineers reported functionally within their own discipline, but had regular interface with the Traffic Divisions at many levels.

 

I was never aware of any other demarcations, with the conspicuous exception of Area Managers, another BR invention of the mid-60s. I think the first was Joe Russell, who was located at - Hurst Green! [Modern Railways ran a feature on him, I recall, and when he retired as AM Dover in the early '80s, I made sure he received a copy at his presentation!] The idea was not to locate them where SMs already existed, so they had offices (and no staff!) at hidey-hole places like South Croydon, Coulsdon North, Polegate, Hove, Barnham and Cheam. They were directly over a number of SMs, and their influence gradually grew over the years, until in 1984, when BR went for two-tier management, it was the fat Divisional Offices that fell, and Area Management was in.

[The Stationmaster]

Adding a bit to Ian's notes (he being a Southern expert and me only being a latterday, and post-Regional as it happened, interloper) it seems from studying the old Southern Appendixes that the BR Divisions fairly accurately followed the boundaries of the SRlwy 'sections' (Western, Central & Eastern although the Appendix was for 'Central-Eastern' in the 1934 edition).

But the word 'Division' was also used, seemingly of the 'Sections' in SRlwy times as I have a 1947 Central Division working timetable for 'London CENTRAL Division /line break/ Suburban Lines' (the GWR was much simpler in such things). However what is clear is that the term 'suburban lines' or, later, 'suburban area' was operationally meaningful as it has long delineated a difference in restrictions of train speeds - even in 1947 and probably in pre-war years although I have not seen any documents from that period.

[Guest Belgian]

Thank you Ian and Mike. I hadn't realised quite how complicated the titles were - I've never seen it described anywhere so, hopefully, this thread (and also on SEmG) will lead to a definitive analysis of the terms.

 

(By the way, Mike, were you out yesterday? I thought you would quickly get Forres after the triangle at Gloucester!)

 

JE

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you Ian and Mike. I hadn't realised quite how complicated the titles were - I've never seen it described anywhere so, hopefully, this thread (and also on SEmG) will lead to a definitive analysis of the terms.

 

(By the way, Mike, were you out yesterday? I thought you would quickly get Forres after the triangle at Gloucester!)

JE

 

Slightly digressing Jeremy - yestreday I had the unenviable pleasure of removing 45 concrete blocks (officially described as 'dense concrete 440x215x215mm' - but they do have two holes so they only weigh about 20-25 kilos each) from the stack where Mr Jewson put them on my drive, in 15 trips with the wheelbarrow, to the lower level of the back garden and restacking them 4 high. Followed at daughter's suggestion, by 'getting on with the rest of the brickwork by the front gate' which duly finished up with the pointing being b*ggered up by pouring rain , which left me with a temper and not looking at your teaser until gone 23.00 by which time I was even more asleep than usual. I await you next 'treatment'

[Oldddudders]

There were a few adjustments to boundaries, but I am unable to put a date on them all. For example, the LBSCR is shown in my Pre-Grouping Atlas as running along the coast all the way from Bo-Peep Junction to Portcreek Junction (I believe the Battle of Havant refers!). It is likely, therefore, that in SR days the bit from Havant (inclusive) to Portcreek was passed to the SW. Certainly Emsworth was the limit of BR's Central Division. Similarly, West Marina depot was far more involved, in both steam and diesel days, with SE power than Central, so the eastern limit of Central was Bexhill inclusive (actually I think Galley Hill Sidings).

 

Then there were the former-SER incursions into LBSCR territory (ok, so they were there first in some cases, but you knw what I mean!). Thus, the Caterham and Tattenham branches became Central, as did the Oxted Line, and the Reading branch as far as Shalford Junction (exclusive), beyond which it all became SW, of course, and the line to Tonbridge to a point beyond Lyghe (later Leigh) Halt. Epsom to Leatherhead became Central, as did maybe Bookham? In the suburban area, Central inherited Tooting Junction, Merton Park & Abbey and Haydons Road. Victoria became Central, while London Bridge - LBSCR HQ - became SE. The Stewarts Lane complex, including Battersea Wharf etc, all was SE by the time I got to know it, despite the former LBSCR roundhouses still being visible. Clapham Junction became entirely SW.

[Southernman46]

I have the honour of owning this bit of SR history - rescued one afternoon from the undergrowth on the Ludgate lines where it was rapidly decaying (officially documented as redundant material btw). It marked the boundary between the East / West divisions at 02m 20ch (ex-Victoria) / 03m 30ch (ex-Waterloo). The area boundary now is at 01m 78ch (ex-Victoria) on the Ludgates and is between the Sussex & Wessex areas of NR.

 

[The Stationmaster]

There were a few adjustments to boundaries, but I am unable to put a date on them all. For example, the LBSCR is shown in my Pre-Grouping Atlas as running along the coast all the way from Bo-Peep Junction to Portcreek Junction (I believe the Battle of Havant refers!). It is likely, therefore, that in SR days the bit from Havant (inclusive) to Portcreek was passed to the SW. Certainly Emsworth was the limit of BR's Central Division. Similarly, West Marina depot was far more involved, in both steam and diesel days, with SE power than Central, so the eastern limit of Central was Bexhill inclusive (actually I think Galley Hill Sidings).

 

Then there were the former-SER incursions into LBSCR territory (ok, so they were there first in some cases, but you knw what I mean!). Thus, the Caterham and Tattenham branches became Central, as did the Oxted Line, and the Reading branch as far as Shalford Junction (exclusive), beyond which it all became SW, of course, and the line to Tonbridge to a point beyond Lyghe (later Leigh) Halt. Epsom to Leatherhead became Central, as did maybe Bookham? In the suburban area, Central inherited Tooting Junction, Merton Park & Abbey and Haydons Road. Victoria became Central, while London Bridge - LBSCR HQ - became SE. The Stewarts Lane complex, including Battersea Wharf etc, all was SE by the time I got to know it, despite the former LBSCR roundhouses still being visible. Clapham Junction became entirely SW.

 

Alas the 1934 Appendixes aren't much help - the Central-Eastern goes all the way to Portsmouth Harbour, as does the Western one! Bedhampton Crossing (incl) and east thereof is only shown in the Central-Eastern book while that book seems to finish at Shalford (incl) in the Guildford direction.