Signaling advice needed please

[Katier]

EDIT: Updated track plan.

 

 

 

 

The pink is a lower level goods area, while the blue is a upper level passenger.

 

The junction on the pink goods line is between a branch to a nearby dock facility and the link to the mainline. the link occuring off scene and won't be modeled - in effect two layouts on one board.

 

Similarly the upper passenger line is double track.. the point into the fiddle yard is purely to simplify the fiddle yard.

 

Station had two lines and a bay ( bit like the terminus part of Moor Street but mirrored ) with a pair of carriage sidings alongside the bay. The sidings in the corner are loco sidings/storage/servicing.

 

On the pink goods lines. The head shunt has a loco facility adjacent too it. The other headshunt feeds two factory sidings. The middle pair of lines are planned to feed a large goods shed.. i.e. this goods facility is a reasonably major one feeding a significant area.

 

The second line that curls round the headshunts is the mainline into the goods area. It would probably climb up to meet the mainline somewhere round the corner.

 

The era is NER/1920ish.. and I havn't a CLUE where to start with signalling it.. especially the goods part.

 

 

 

 

Please can someone help

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

Kat

[Katier]

Editted to correct couple of small errors. The painted bit is the non-existant off-scene junction that may need some signalling for it but won't be modelled.

[Katier]

Would still appreciate some advice on the signalling for this. I've started work on it so would be nice to get the signalling in reasonably early in the construction.

 

Thanks

 

Kat

[phil-b259]

Hows this for starters. I freely admit I know nothing of exact NER signaling practics so my diagram should only be used for guidence as to what goes where rather than an exact representation of the prototype, however all the key principles are there. The goods yard would have no signalling at all while the engine release crossover would be worked by a groundframe and would not require signals

[Katier]

Thanks - simpler than I expected.

 

Few questions.

 

1) How would the goods branch be controlled? (the pink line that goes under the mainline is a branch to a dock or colliery - undecided which yet)

2) are we missing a starter as there are 2 main plaftorms and a bay passenger/parcels platform.

3) Just one station box?

4) why 4 ground signals out of the loco sidings? (and for that matter what are the 4 ground signals for before the double crossover on the down line).

[phil-b259]

Thanks - simpler than I expected.

 

Few questions.

 

1) How would the goods branch be controlled? (the pink line that goes under the mainline is a branch to a dock or colliery - undecided which yet)

2) are we missing a starter as there are 2 main plaftorms and a bay passenger/parcels platform.

3) Just one station box?

4) why 4 ground signals out of the loco sidings? (and for that matter what are the 4 ground signals for before the double crossover on the down line).

 

To answer your points

 

(1) In general goods only branch lines did not need signalling as such, especially short ones as trains would be expected to proceed on a line of sight basis. Longer lines may well have had some form of signalling or token system but in this case I wouldn't have thought it necessary

 

(2) If the bay is used for passengers then yes a propper starting signal is required, if its only parcels and ecs then no. (On a seperate note though I seem to have missed off two shunting discs below each of the two starting signals on the main platform)

 

(3) yes, I would have thought so given the size of the station

 

(4) the stacked ground signals are ment to illustrate some form of route indication. I don't know what the NERs prefrence was with this regard but I would have imagined there would be some sort of route indicator provided even if it was only in the form of stacked discs. For example the dics on the exit from the carrage sidings have two routes, one into the loco servicing area, the other out onto the main line heading away from the station. Similarly the signal reading into the station has one disc for the run round on the left and one on the carage sidings on the right. The exit from the loco has one for each destination including the platform lines as has the signal reading back into the station for shunting purposes

 

hope this helps

[Flying Pig]

Ok, here's my entry, with apologies to Phil for cutting his diagram about:

 

 

Some notes:

• all three platforms are now signalled for arrival and departure
  
• the home signal also has a calling on arm for each platform road and a miniature arm for the carriage sidings, replacing the discs in Phil's plan
  
• there's an advanced starter to allow carriage shunting within station limits
  
• each starter has an associated miniature arm reading to the loco sidings; shunts along the up main are carried out under authority of the main arms
  
• I haven't touched the rest of the discs; there do seem to be an awful lot of them but then the NER took a completist approach to signalling.
  

Unfortunately I didn't read the question carefully enough before drawing the picture and the following are not correct for 1920

• AFAIK the horizontal white stripe indicating a calling on or shunt ahead signal was a slightly later innovation; this page suggests the NER used a small version of the ordinary stop signal.
  
• the familiar disc shunting signal also came later. There are photos of an NER ground signal here, though I suspect they might have used stacked miniature arms in some of the places I've shown discs (slotted post too, like this one).
  

Edit: successful plans on this forum usually show a ground frame controlling the loco release crossover. I don't know whether that would be appropriate in this case so I've left it out.

 

(I've also left out the facing point locks and fouling bars - got to give the experts something to do )

[Katier]

Question regarding catch points, would it be 'wrong' to put it between the bay platform and the mainline rather than between bay and carriage.. the reason I ask is simply room. There is room at the end of the platform while there isn't any between bay and carriage sidings..

 

I have also been debating moving one of the loco sidings to 'headshunt' off where I am suggesting putting a catch point. Prejumably if I did that I could forgo a catch point?

[beast66606]

There are photos of an NER ground signal here, though I suspect they might have used stacked miniature arms in some of the places I've shown discs (slotted post too, like this one).

 

The NER would be almost certain to have a huge number of miniature arms rather than ground signals and probably it would be signalled like a typical model railway - i.e a signal arm for nearly every possible route.

[Katier]

Thanks all Sounds like the biggest thing to find out is how they did the routes on the miniature/ground signals.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks all Sounds like the biggest thing to find out is how they did the routes on the miniature/ground signals.

As far as ,miniature semaphores were concerned it was at one time one arm for each route - normally arranged vertically of course although bracket structures did exist in some places. Ground signals I don't know too much about but they were almost certainly single and might, or might not, have been more in the line of points indicators than anything else - MickNich is the expert on NER stuff for this sort of thing.

Question regarding catch points, would it be 'wrong' to put it between the bay platform and the mainline rather than between bay and carriage.. the reason I ask is simply room. There is room at the end of the platform while there isn't any between bay and carriage sidings..

 

I have also been debating moving one of the loco sidings to 'headshunt' off where I am suggesting putting a catch point. Prejumably if I did that I could forgo a catch point?

You trap against a movement onto a passenger running line (and in the old days it was also not unusual for subsidiary passenger lines such as bays to be trapped as well although I don't know what NER practice was in that respect. But you definitely need to trap the sidings exit - possibly by using a 'half slip' arrangement where the sidings divide if there is no other space.

[Katier]

So when you say arranged vertically there would just be a smaller than normal post (probably slotted) with, in my case, up to 4 arms on it. The driver would just know which route he was signalled to by knowing the station?

 

Incidentally side question.. if the driver spotted the signalling was sending him to the wrong road, say he was to back onto a train on platform 1 but the bay platform signal was set.. what was the procedure? (obviously can't model that but just wondered).

 

Heck, did that kind of mistake happen?

[PinzaC55]

So when you say arranged vertically there would just be a smaller than normal post (probably slotted) with, in my case, up to 4 arms on it. The driver would just know which route he was signalled to by knowing the station?

 

Incidentally side question.. if the driver spotted the signalling was sending him to the wrong road, say he was to back onto a train on platform 1 but the bay platform signal was set.. what was the procedure? (obviously can't model that but just wondered).

 

Heck, did that kind of mistake happen?

The NER didn't usually use shunt signals mounted vertically on one post - they preferred them mounted horizontally.

Re the question of "What the driver would do" if he was given a wrong signal or no signal (eg if the signal lamp was out) he was expected to screw the loco down and get in touch with signalman.

My diagram of my "home" station, Pallion, http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3940282787_29b1dbef34_b.jpg

has some similarity to your layout - note that the miniature arms from the "Low Yard" (in red) are arranged by height - higher arm applies to moves along the branch to Deptford with lower arm applying to moves to the Branch Siding.

[Katier]

Ahhh so would in effect be a conventional signal/brackets just miniturised and using slotted posts?

[The Stationmaster]

Ahhh so would in effect be a conventional signal/brackets just miniturised and using slotted posts?

 

Here you can see both options - in the foreground a 'signal bridge' with at the left end 3 arms (albeit UQ) arranged vertically while in the background you can see a distinctly more modern version of the back of a three doll bracket, As this signal bridge at Falsgrave was something of a 'bitsa' I don't know if it had UQ signals on that end doll when it was erected and we have already heard that that preferred NER practice was to use bracket structure instead of 'stacked' arms.

 

For comparative size of dolls this picture (including a running arm) might help -

[micknich2003]

Stacked arms on the NE were rare, the only ones that come to mind where at Neptune Street Hull, and Goods only. Nevertheless, I'm sure there were others. For a station such as yours, I would personaly forget the Calling On arms, these would normally only be found at the bigger stations such as Newcastle, York, Hull and Scarbrough etc, but no doubt there would be exceptions. It was also common to have a "Direction" signal almost on the point ends and this in turn may read on to another one, this, before the use of Track Circuits was the only means of "Holding the Road". I will put a few sketches together and post later.

Of course, and being a non prototype location, there is no perfect answer, just a generalisation. Best Wishes, Mick, Nicholson.

[PinzaC55]

Regarding the Falsgrave gantry I need to point out that the vertically stacked arms were LNER not NER. There was a famous LNER signal engineer (Tattershall I think) who boasted that he removed one NER miniature semaphore for every day he was in the job.

[phil-b259]

So when you say arranged vertically there would just be a smaller than normal post (probably slotted) with, in my case, up to 4 arms on it. The driver would just know which route he was signalled to by knowing the station?

 

Incidentally side question.. if the driver spotted the signalling was sending him to the wrong road, say he was to back onto a train on platform 1 but the bay platform signal was set.. what was the procedure? (obviously can't model that but just wondered).

 

Heck, did that kind of mistake happen?

 

Yes it did, does, and will continue to happern on the odd ocasion. As to what would be the procedure that would depend on when precicelty the driver noticed the issue and the rules in place at the time. If it was before he started moving either he could be proactive and get the signalmans attention (whistling phoning the box etc) or he could just sit there untill the signalman notices nothing is happening and investigates. If he starts moving towards the station, but stops before the offending point then depending on the signalling arangements it may be possable for the signalman to corect his error. Finally if all else fails and the driver only realises his error as the loco starts going the wrong way then he either completes the move or stops (and with the signalmans permission of course) goes back to wher he started. In all cases however the signalman will not be allowed to forget shuch an error for a while

[micknich2003]

Attached, possible ways the NE may have signalled the layout.

[Guest stuartp]

If it was before he started moving either he could be proactive and get the signalmans attention (whistling phoning the box etc) or he could just sit there untill the signalman notices nothing is happening and investigates.

 

In the early 90s Sheffield - Huddersfield trains were generally 142s or 144s, and Sheffield - Leeds were 156. A colleague at Barnsley Station JUnction had a failsafe method of deciding which signal to clear if they were late or out of sequence, and I (in the previous box) had forgotten to tell him.

 

"Red or blue go up the branch, grey and purple go mainline. If they toot I put back and try again."

[micknich2003]

I forgot to mention, if you incorprate "Calling On" arms, it was NE practice for them to procede the Main arm. Look at old photo's and you will see the Calling On arm is always lowered. Mick Nicholson.