RP29 Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 I've been looking around trying to find how banking locos operated, but only found something relating to the late 19th century. Did a train requiring assistance stop and wait for the banker to buffer up? Or did the driver whistle if he needed a banker, and then the banker set off and catch up the train on the go? Did passenger and freight trains have different rules? Anybody know? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 26, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2009 I've been looking around trying to find how banking locos operated, but only found something relating to the late 19th century. Did a train requiring assistance stop and wait for the banker to buffer up? Or did the driver whistle if he needed a banker, and then the banker set off and catch up the train on the go? Did passenger and freight trains have different rules? Anybody know? Yes - but I'm a bit too busy to go into the detail now. In most places passenger bankers had to be coupled and the brake bagged up (i.e vacuum pipe connected) but there were notable exceptions. However if it was an undulating road I can't think of there ever being any exceptions for passenger trains - but someone else might know of one/some. I will add this to the list to of things to go into in greater detail as I am well behind on the mixed train front as well at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I've been looking around trying to find how banking locos operated, but only found something relating to the late 19th century. Did a train requiring assistance stop and wait for the banker to buffer up? Or did the driver whistle if he needed a banker, and then the banker set off and catch up the train on the go? Did passenger and freight trains have different rules? Anybody know? AFAIK all trains requiring assistance, stopped for a banker. Whistle codes were used to ask for a banker in some cases but plungers were also used in some cases. There are a number of gradients in the West Midlands which have required various forms of banking over the years. There was a bank engine based at Great Bridge for banking trains up the South Staffs to Dudley, as well as duties of various trip locos to bank colleagues. The Gt Bridge banker was known as "target 6" in the mid 1960s - an EE type 1 replacing a steam loco of class 5MT or 7F or 8F. The type 1 was soon replaced by Sulxer type 2s of 1160hp, later 1250hp, these giving way to class 31 from the mid 1980s. This bank was banked "loose" with the banker buffering up, then shoving up the bank to Dudley. From the early 1980s, the Great Bridge banker relocted to the Brook siding in Walsall so that it could also bank Perry Barr to Soho - another area of "loose" banking. in later years I believe this banker became T61 Banking from Stourbridge was a different proposition, in the 1980s it was target 53 and was diagrammed a class 45 diesel, banking up Old Hill to Rowley Regis, and to a lesser extent up to Round Oak on the Dudley line. Banking the "Stourbridge extension" up to Rowley required the loco to be "hooked on" - on account of the dip between Stourbridge Junction and Lye. The loco was coupled to the rear, brake piped up and brake valve "pinned up" on the banker. the train then set off and remained coupled al lthe way into the loop at Rowley Regis, where the banker hooked off and returned to Stourbridge Jn. A mate of mine was banking one night and hooked onto the rear of a train from South Wales and set off in normal fashion. The train must have been reasonably light and they had a cracking run up the bank, through Old Hill tunnel, and on through Rowley. In those days the rulebook forbade locos on the rear of trains in most cases and my mate was becoming worried that he would be "overcarried" beyond the sphere of operations and eventually had to open up his brake valve and bring the train to a rather abrupt halt, to remind that driver on the front that he was still there. This action would not be taken lightly as it is effectively an emergency stop with all the air in the brake pipe released. The driver on the front loco wasn't too impressed until he was reminded that he should have stopped !!!! Returning to the question - yes - sme locations had plungers - Bromsgrove and Perry Barr were two locations. Not sure what arrangements were in hand for Saltley's T70 "bank pilot" when is used to shove MGRs up the bank from Landor St to Bordesley Jn or Moseley tunnel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossfell5 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 There were many different 'local instructions' in regards to Banking arrangements. Westbury to Warminster ALL the freights were coupled when banked. The Lickey - nearly everything was just pushed - as Phil says a plunger was used. It's been nearly 20 yrs since I worked across the line but I think the Instructions were: The Driver would let Gloucester S/Box know if he had a 'banker load' or req a banker and the train would then be signalled onto the loop. The banker loco would then be signalled onto the back of the train and push a plunger which let the train Driver know he was on the back (a light illuminated). When the Signal cleared for the train the lead Driver would let the banker Driver know by pressing a plunger at his end and off you went. When I was Driving I normally waited for the 'shove' from the Banker before I took power - just in case banker crew hadn't 'dropped off to sleep'!! RE coupling whilst banking Many trains have been overcarried (sometimes with disasterous consequences) because the banker Driver did not shutdown his Brake handle. This meant that BOTH locos were creating the Brake - so when the front Driver tried to Stop (apply the brake) the banker loco would be trying to release it!! Making an Emergency brake application by the front Driver was the only way to Stop, even then it took some time, not too serious if you had room or Signals were clear - but that was not always the case. Remember a 56 trying to Stop at the end of the loop at Caverswall - it ended up in the field!! Crossfell5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Amazed that no-one's mentioned Cowlairs bank/ tunnel where the incoming loco off a forming service train or ECS would (typically) shove, loose, the outgoing service up through the tunnel as far as opposite Eastfield Depot where it would shut off. Window-hanging the rear coach in the epochal '80s as a 27 or more often 37 rampaged in the stygian gloom at the back of the train.... Happy Days! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Pannier Tank Posted November 27, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2009 I seem to recall in steam days going over Shap Summit, that if a Driver required a 'Banker' he gave 4 Crows on the whistle as he pased the box (Tebay ?). He would then stop and wait for the banking engine to pull up behind the train, but not actually couple up. The banker would then 'whistle up' to the train Driver and away they would went. 6233 Duchess of Sutherland managed without assistance last year when I travelled on the "Royal Scot"; she only dropped to 50 MPH with 12 on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I reviewed the Sectional Appendix for the Lickey a couple of years ago and it is still as Crossfell5 describes. In addition, trains using the US-style knuckle couplers, that can't buffer up, can be pushed by one of the 66s that has a special coupling release handle. They can have one attempt at releasing the coupling after Blackwell, and if this doesn't work the train has to be brought to a stand immediately and separated manually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Would be worth doing a search of the old forum on this topic as I'm sure I've read it in the not-too-distant past, mention of discussions of some bank out of Manchester Victoria coming to mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 As has been already said, circumstances dictated the operations. I would have thought that most banking engines were not coupled unless there was an undulating route in which case they would be coupled. In steam days I remember the CCE being banked by a Mickey Mouse from Moat lane Jct to Talerddig but I can't remember whether we had to stop to detach. Bankers on the Lickey were not coupled, I assume that a whistle code was given either at the previous 'box (Stoke Works?) or when passing the banker stabling area and the train brought to a stand. When the banker was at the rear of the train the driver would indicate to the train engine by giving a "crow" whistle (one long, two short, two short). The driver of the train engine would reply similarly and the train would then set off up the bank. As part of my apprenticeship at Derby Loco, I had a footplate ride on a Peak from Bristol to Derby in 1966. We must have had about 12 on and I remember the driver saying that if he got stopped at Bromsgrove, as he had been on the previous day, he would take a banker so that bankers were obviously available "on demand". We didn't get stopped but were down to (IIRC) 22 mph at the top. I don't think that the Manchester Victoria to Miles Platting bankers were coupled or those from Saltley for the Camp Hill line. The Cowlairs bankers had detachable couplings such that the banker was coupled to the rear of the train and the driver pulled a cord to detach the coupling at the top of the bank. Not too familiar with the details though. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Would be worth doing a search of the old forum on this topic as I'm sure I've read it in the not-too-distant past, mention of discussions of some bank out of Manchester Victoria coming to mind. I opened one oddly enough, although I'd forgotten! http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=38007 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP29 Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 What a fascinating lot of info! In the old RMweb posts there was the comment that it must have been a bit hairy for a banker to catch up on the run. The following link bears that out: home.clara.net/gw0hqd/bumps/280176/280176.htm The question arises, why didn't my Google search throw up the old RMweb thread? Googling "banking operations" +RMweb doesn't do it. Brings up a long discussion about UK and US freight operations, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I don't recall the publication but I read some locomans recollection of operations on one of the ex L & Y lines to the east of Manchester Victoria (not Hunts Bank). ? An 0-6-0T had previously done duties helping mineral trains up the bank and in the 1950's one of the new 204hp diesel mechanical shunters was being tried. ? As was common practice elsewhere, with the banker buffered up, the train engine gave a short reversing movement to compress all the buffers with the aim of using the rebound to assist getting the train underway. ? The shock of this move just pushed the old steam bankers back a foot or so, the diesel mechanical, being in gear, was pushed back and had it's gear box stripped in the process. Arthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted November 27, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 27, 2009 In steam days, between Exeter St David's and Central there were often 4 loco's involved in getting the Meldon ballast trains up the bank. The pilot and two banking engines were attached at David's and then a feast of cock crow whistles preceded a volcanic acceleration and thunderous climb up the short but tightly curved (part in tunnel) 1/37 bank. I believe the Pilot was 'fully attached' but the bankers only attached to each other and just buffered up to the train, however I am not certain. A double headed steam charter stalled on this bank in the recent past! (It was well reported in the railway press). Sincerely, ex 72A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 An interesting accident report involving a banking engine... http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docSummary.php?docID=2508 Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 There were many different 'local instructions' in regards to Banking arrangements. Westbury to Warminster ALL the freights were coupled when banked. The Lickey - nearly everything was just pushed - as Phil says a plunger was used. It's been nearly 20 yrs since I worked across the line but I think the Instructions were: The Driver would let Gloucester S/Box know if he had a 'banker load' or req a banker and the train would then be signalled onto the loop. The banker loco would then be signalled onto the back of the train and push a plunger which let the train Driver know he was on the back (a light illuminated). When the Signal cleared for the train the lead Driver would let the banker Driver know by pressing a plunger at his end and off you went. When I was Driving I normally waited for the 'shove' from the Banker before I took power - just in case banker crew hadn't 'dropped off to sleep'!! RE coupling whilst banking Many trains have been overcarried (sometimes with disasterous consequences) because the banker Driver did not shutdown his Brake handle. This meant that BOTH locos were creating the Brake - so when the front Driver tried to Stop (apply the brake) the banker loco would be trying to release it!! Making an Emergency brake application by the front Driver was the only way to Stop, even then it took some time, not too serious if you had room or Signals were clear - but that was not always the case. Remember a 56 trying to Stop at the end of the loop at Caverswall - it ended up in the field!! Crossfell5 Sorry to be dense here, but is the above-mentioned plunger a button that the driver presses with his finger, or some sort of treadle on the track? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossfell5 Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 It was/is a big button, positioned on a board cab height, You just leaned out of your window. Crossfell5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 ..............................Snip. The Cowlairs bankers had detachable couplings such that the banker was coupled to the rear of the train and the driver pulled a cord to detach the coupling at the top of the bank. Not too familiar with the details though. Richard The N15's used as bankers had slip couplings. I believe that the banker had to be buffered up, i.e no load on the coupling, for them to slip, but there are a number of stories about occasions where the coupling didn't slip [and the train crew didn't notice]. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Another location that regularly saw 'banking' was between Tunstead and Peak Forest. In the eighties at least the Tunstead - Margam, Northwich, Collyhurst St, Dean Lane and Portwood services were all regularly involved. The Peak Forest 'banker' turn (often a class 25) would be summoned when the train loco (usually a class 45 or 47) was en-route from Buxton shed to Tunstead. The banker would run down an empty road in Tunstead yard and 'stand clear' of the rear of the train until the train engine had arrived, coupled on to its train and undergone the brake continuity test. The train guard or shunter would then wave the banker onto the rear of the train. Once the outlet signal cleared and the train was ready to depart the train driver would sound '2 crows' on the horn and start to pull away, the banker driver would respond with '2 crows' on the horn and start pushing the train out of the quarry (not coupled to the train). It was usual for the banker driver to keep his foot against the drivers desk in front of him just in case the train driver 'dropped the deadmans' or applied the brake because it would be like running into a brick wall at the back. The train would be banked at around 15-25mph up to Peak Forest where the banker driver would ease off power gently so as not to cause snatches along the train as the train engine took over sole control. The banker would then brake to a halt at the Peak Forest section signal and resume shunting duties thereat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.