Scale7 to be or not to be..

[Scale7JB]

Hi all,

 

I got an e-mail this morning from 7mm Mick, and I though it might be worth using it as a starting point for a thread for others that are considering a move, or have further questions. Hope that's okay Mick. You'll hopefully get a lot more info out of all the Scale7 guys on here too, of which there are a fair number...

 

I know that there was a huge thread on the old RMWeb, but it might be worth starting a fresh for those contributors from last time who may know more, or have slightly clearer views on what Scale7 is all about..

 

Mick's mail.... --->>>

 

Scale 7 of fine scale O guage?? I find myself reading more and more on RM Web about Scale 7. The more I read the more I come round to the idea and I must say I thoroughly enjoy watching the progress on your K2, including the youtube footage. The tyre profile looks great as does the scale frame width. Along with this my Dad has modelled em for years and I always say to him, if you model em why not P4???

I suppose what I'm asking is, is it a nightmare converting to scale 7? I have some stock already, can it be converted by just swaping wheels as in 4mm? what is the avaliability of loco wheels like in Scale 7? Are there layout operational issues ?

In any case it's not too late for me as I've not built a layout to speak of in 7mm yet.

 

<<----- End transmission..

 

 

 

Well, I guess the best thing I can do is to list a few of the major requirements for Scale7... don't get too scared by some of them, as they are easily talked through...

 

Scale width frames.

 

This will prevent you from running engines on anything less than approx 7-8ft radius, depending on the engine of course... 'Just like the real thing'

 

Scale7 axles, as the gauge is different to O/fs.

 

O/fs is 32mm and S7 is 33mm. The difference might not seem like a lot, but because you would be using scale width frames, the distance between those frames is actually greatly increased.

 

Scale 7 profiled wheels.

 

These are purchased as standard Slaters O/fs wheels and are then reprofiled. You can get yourself a profiling too from the society, or just send them off to one of a number of people who can turn them around in a couple of days.

 

Sprung wheelsets

 

This actually relates to both engines and rolling stock. The flanges are so much smaller than O/fs that you need to have the suspension working on the chassis for any undulating dips in the trackwork. Obviously you need to build your permanent way as well as you can but there will always be little dips and troughs looking to trip up the unwary engine on a curve. 'Just like the real thing'.

 

There is a bit more to Scale7, but I thought I would just post this up before I scare anyone off with a comprehensive list of differences..

 

Regarding converting stock, it would be interesting to know what stock you have already, and then I think we would be able to let you know if anything can be converted, as it isn't as simple as merely changing the wheelsets like EM, because of the wheel springing and frame widening etc..

 

I must add that Scale7 isn't for everyone... It sounds like, similar to me, that you might have caught the bug at the right time, before you have built too much stock in O/fs. But at the same time, do you attend a 7mm club at all ? If so, then you may want to stick with O/fs as, at least for the moment anyway, there is a distinct lack of Scale7 test tracks for lengthy running, though there are from what I have heard, plans for 33mm gauge to be added to some clubs test tracks, as no one can ignore that the gauge is getting more popular..

 

For me, I love it, and I would never (never say never, I know) go back to O/fs. Okay, it is a little trickier than O/fs, and yes, it does cost a little more... but the end result does look a lot better...

 

Just thought I would also attach an image of my local S7 group whom are building a 'wouldhavebeen' terminus at West Mersea on the Great Eastern based in 1946.

 

JB.

 

[Nortonian]

So is it right that there are certain items that are only available by being a S7 member, and that to get your wheels turned, you have to be a member as its only members that turn them ?. By becoming a member what do you get for your fee, anything different to what is already on the website ?. If this is so, then this is what gives S7 an air of exclusivity, which puts people off ?.

What size turnout, ie, B8 is the minimum radii ?.

 

Summat to be going on with !

 

Kindest

 

Ian

[meple]

What size turnout, ie, B8 is the minimum radii ?.

 

 

No, the minimum is what ever the real railway ran on.

[Scale7JB]

Hi Ian, the only thing which is handy from the S7 stores, which is more of a luxury than a necessity is the frame spacer material, but to be honest, I generally make my own now, and I am sure that you would be more than capable of making your own, with a set of calipers in hand.. Some kits like JLTRT and MOK are starting to supply S7 frame spacers in their kits too.

 

One thing that I have forgotten about that you will need from S7 stores (unless you have a milling machine) is a S7 Back-to-Back gauge.

 

The S7 wider axles are available from Slaters, and I can pass on the information of more than a few people that can reprofile your wheels. S7 wagon wheels are also available from slaters, but you MUST MUST MUST check the back to back gauge on these as (and I'm trying not to be slanderous here) they pretty much always need adjusting.

 

Nothing exclusive about S7 parts at all... and I think that all of us S7'ers try our hardest not to make it exclusive as there are enough anti-Scale7 people around as it is..

 

JB.

[Scale7JB]

Forgot to mention..

 

B8 is kindof the minimum for normal speed running, but I reckon if you have enough lateral movement in your middle axle, you might be able to squeeze it around something smaller...

 

There are many stories of the real thing being able to run round a tight curve in one direction, but jump the tracks on the return journey, similar can happen in S7

 

JB.

[3 link]

Interesting topic and although I have modeled 0f/s for around 15 years now I am happy with what I can personally achieve with my modeling skills, and I find the tolerances fine enough in Of/s. So when it comes to the gap between slide bars/coupling rods/ crank pins on say an 0-8-0 or 2-10-0, sometimes these tolerances drives me to distraction (brakes shorting out on drivers, coupling rods binding or rubbing on the crank pins,etc ), let alone to have to work to even a finer scale. I am not trying to promote any particular scale, just that I am happy with Of/s where I think it can be a bit more forgiving with my personal skill level and patience. So for once this reason does not come down to having to much stock to change over.

 

Regards, Martyn.

[Dusty]

Gents

 

There's nothing remotely "exclusive" about S7. If there was, then they wouldn't allow me in!

 

The whole point really is to get as close to the prototype as we can in terms of scale dimensions. This tends to be particularly noticable where frames and wheels are concerned, and is what got me involved many years ago after building an Alan Gibson 4F kit and wondering how to fill the massive and highly visible gap between the splashers and the outsides of the frames...

 

From my perpective, it seemed sensible that dimensions on the model should correspond with those on the prototype. It was also relatively straightforward for me to convert what stock I had (didn't have much)and make the decision that all new work would be to exact scale.

 

It may interest others to know that wheels can be had from all the usual suspects, AGH, Slaters, Walsall Model Industries, Alan Gibson and the S7 Society. I have my preferencs, but nevertheless, the choice is available.

 

Socially, there is a pretty active and friendly group, with well attended local meetings supported by several traders, so I would say that there is sufficient "infrastruture" to support those wishing to put a toe in the water, and plenty of ecouragement to be had.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Robin

[7mm Mick]

Hi all,

 

I got an e-mail this morning from 7mm Mick, and I though it might be worth using it as a starting point for a thread for others that are considering a move, or have further questions. Hope that's okay Mick. You'll hopefully get a lot more info out of all the Scale7 guys on here too, of which there are a fair number...

 

I know that there was a huge thread on the old RMWeb, but it might be worth starting a fresh for those contributors from last time who may know more, or have slightly clearer views on what Scale7 is all about..

 

Mick's mail.... --->>>

 

Scale 7 of fine scale O guage?? I find myself reading more and more on RM Web about Scale 7. The more I read the more I come round to the idea and I must say I thoroughly enjoy watching the progress on your K2, including the youtube footage. The tyre profile looks great as does the scale frame width. Along with this my Dad has modelled em for years and I always say to him, if you model em why not P4???

I suppose what I'm asking is, is it a nightmare converting to scale 7? I have some stock already, can it be converted by just swaping wheels as in 4mm? what is the avaliability of loco wheels like in Scale 7? Are there layout operational issues ?

In any case it's not too late for me as I've not built a layout to speak of in 7mm yet.

 

<<----- End transmission..

 

 

 

Well, I guess the best thing I can do is to list a few of the major requirements for Scale7... don't get too scared by some of them, as they are easily talked through...

 

Scale width frames.

 

This will prevent you from running engines on anything less than approx 7-8ft radius, depending on the engine of course... 'Just like the real thing'

 

Scale7 axles, as the gauge is different to O/fs.

 

O/fs is 32mm and S7 is 33mm. The difference might not seem like a lot, but because you would be using scale width frames, the distance between those frames is actually greatly increased.

 

Scale 7 profiled wheels.

 

These are purchased as standard Slaters O/fs wheels and are then reprofiled. You can get yourself a profiling too from the society, or just send them off to one of a number of people who can turn them around in a couple of days.

 

Sprung wheelsets

 

This actually relates to both engines and rolling stock. The flanges are so much smaller than O/fs that you need to have the suspension working on the chassis for any undulating dips in the trackwork. Obviously you need to build your permanent way as well as you can but there will always be little dips and troughs looking to trip up the unwary engine on a curve. 'Just like the real thing'.

 

There is a bit more to Scale7, but I thought I would just post this up before I scare anyone off with a comprehensive list of differences..

 

Regarding converting stock, it would be interesting to know what stock you have already, and then I think we would be able to let you know if anything can be converted, as it isn't as simple as merely changing the wheelsets like EM, because of the wheel springing and frame widening etc..

 

I must add that Scale7 isn't for everyone... It sounds like, similar to me, that you might have caught the bug at the right time, before you have built too much stock in O/fs. But at the same time, do you attend a 7mm club at all ? If so, then you may want to stick with O/fs as, at least for the moment anyway, there is a distinct lack of Scale7 test tracks for lengthy running, though there are from what I have heard, plans for 33mm gauge to be added to some clubs test tracks, as no one can ignore that the gauge is getting more popular..

 

For me, I love it, and I would never (never say never, I know) go back to O/fs. Okay, it is a little trickier than O/fs, and yes, it does cost a little more... but the end result does look a lot better...

 

Just thought I would also attach an image of my local S7 group whom are building a 'wouldhavebeen' terminus at West Mersea on the Great Eastern based in 1946.

 

JB.

 

 

I don't mind my email being used at all, after all there's nothing like a healthy debate. I agree that it's not too late for me to go down a different route after all the closer to the real thing the better in my book. In answer to the question about stock a lot is unbuilt as the majority of things I built in the past have been sold on, don't ask it involves a woman ( One i'm no longer associated with ) The things I have built are mainly slaters, parkside and peco wagon kits but unfortunatley i've gone built them taking the advice of the great Roy Jackson's adidge ' If you're p-way is good enough you don't need compensation ' !! So in short they're all built rigid. The only things I will be sad to loose is a Javlin Black 5 I built a while ago. Any tips on converation would be a great help,

 

Mick

[F-UnitMad]

... there's nothing like a healthy debate...

 

I'm not sure any of us who model Common or Garden O scale would raise much argument against Scale7..?

 

More likely stand in awe and :icon_drool:....

 

I'm with 3 Link, though... Of/s is what I can acheive with my personal skill level (such as it is).

 

It might not sound like much of a diifference between 32 and 33mm, and doesn't show up much in pictures, but having seen a Scale7 layout (a BR Blue shunty-plank I've quite forgotten the name of) in the flesh it was obvious right away that this wasn't ordinary O gauge, so I can understand why modellers go for it.

Mick's comparison of EM to P4 in 4mm is interesting, as Of/s has been described as being the equivalent of EM as it comes... if ordinary O scale had the same scale-to-gauge discrepancy that OO gauge has; where the track gauge was, say, 28mm, I wonder if Scale7 would be more popular as a result..??

[7mm Mick]

What I also forgot to ask is if any one knows if the wagon kit companies I mentioned would swap 32mm whees for 33mm wheels from unbuilt kits ( I have a few in stock ) ??

 

PS My last post with its missing words is proof that two month old babies and shifts don't mix, i'm very tired

[dikitriki]

Hi

 

I was faced with this choice, and I had a really difficult decision to make. All my modelling inclinations tell me S7 is what I want to do. However, there were 2 very important questions I had to ask myself:

 

Could I convert my existing stock?

What about my mates?

 

The answer to the first was an unequivocal no. I have been in 7mm scale for the best part of 25 years. I have too much 32mm gauge stuff and the rebuilding programme required was not on, taking another 25 years to get to where I am now!. The answer to the second was easy. They are all 32mm finescale, and they (I suspect) would not be interested in S7. I don't want to play trains on my own, and I guess they wouldn't be so enthusiastic about helping me build my layout if they couldn't run their models on it. I know of no-one within 50 miles of me running S7, so going to someone else's layout was a non-starter.

 

So, I'm stuck with 32mm gauge. Is there anything that can be done to improve the situation. Yes, there is. Daft as it may seem, reduce the gauge through the pointwork. In my case to 31.5mm gauge. The most obvious difference looking at the trackwork is clearances through pointwork, and reducing the gauge by just 0.5mm makes a huge difference as all the check rail and flangeway gaps are reduced. I'm then left with the overscale flanges, but I am going to experiment with reducing them to S7 dimensions or perhaps some point in between S7 and finescale to sort that one. I think my trackwork is good enough to support that, but we shall see.

 

I'm not suggesting that 31.5mm is as good as S7 - it isn't - but it goes a long way to removing the worst criticisms of 32mm gauge pointwork if it is not possible for other reasons to go to S7.

 

Who knows? I really fancy doing something in S7, and maybe when the layout and the stock for it is finished I shall start again. Maybe I could build an S7 chassis as well as a finescale one for my MOK standard tank? Hmmmmm

 

Richard

[Nortonian]

Hello Richard,

 

I think you have answered a lot of questions on many peoples behalf. My modelling skills also are telling me S7, but its the room required to create anything other than an end to end layout at home and not having access to a larger layout within a reasonable distance that puts me off, not the actual work involved. That`s no different to P4.

 

I intend to use C&L`s 31.25mm track gauge and stick with Slater`s wheels, opening the gauge back out on curves to 32mm. I also will look into reducing the flanges a tad.

 

I would love to fly the Scale 7 flag, but perhaps, not at this time eh ?.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

[3 link]

Another problem depending on your circumstances is the amount of room an average B8 turnout takes up, if we are to use a B8 as a minimum radius datum to work from. Sorry to sound a bit negative but most of us do not have the space or wealth to create the space required for a decent sized layout, I think the best person to ask on this subject is Pete Waterman. As he has the criteria to go S7 but as to why he stayed with Of/s for his vast layout who knows, if he's up at Reading on Saturday I will ask him for you.

 

Regards, Martyn.

[7mm Mick]

It seems that there are a lot of valid points to stay with O/fs. The main ones for me are that I live in the North East area and there seems to be a lot more O/fs modellers than S7 ( Only based on what I have read here and seen at shows in the area ), I would like to at be involved in a club/group layout at some point and it seems S7 would limit this. Also ultimately when it comes to building a layout I don't have masses of space avaliable. Like others my modelling senses tell me S7 is the way to go because of it's closness to the prototype but the practicalities of O/fs out way this.

 

So O/fs it is for me ( I think )

 

Mick

 

 

[ozzyo]

Hi

 

I was faced with this choice, and I had a really difficult decision to make. All my modelling inclinations tell me S7 is what I want to do. However, there were 2 very important questions I had to ask myself:

 

Could I convert my existing stock?

What about my mates?

 

The answer to the first was an unequivocal no. I have been in 7mm scale for the best part of 25 years. I have too much 32mm gauge stuff and the rebuilding programme required was not on, taking another 25 years to get to where I am now!. The answer to the second was easy. They are all 32mm finescale, and they (I suspect) would not be interested in S7. I don't want to play trains on my own, and I guess they wouldn't be so enthusiastic about helping me build my layout if they couldn't run their models on it. I know of no-one within 50 miles of me running S7, so going to someone else's layout was a non-starter.

 

So, I'm stuck with 32mm gauge. Is there anything that can be done to improve the situation. Yes, there is. Daft as it may seem, reduce the gauge through the pointwork. In my case to 31.5mm gauge. The most obvious difference looking at the trackwork is clearances through pointwork, and reducing the gauge by just 0.5mm makes a huge difference as all the check rail and flangeway gaps are reduced. I'm then left with the overscale flanges, but I am going to experiment with reducing them to S7 dimensions or perhaps some point in between S7 and finescale to sort that one. I think my trackwork is good enough to support that, but we shall see.

 

I'm not suggesting that 31.5mm is as good as S7 - it isn't - but it goes a long way to removing the worst criticisms of 32mm gauge pointwork if it is not possible for other reasons to go to S7.

 

Who knows? I really fancy doing something in S7, and maybe when the layout and the stock for it is finished I shall start again. Maybe I could build an S7 chassis as well as a finescale one for my MOK standard tank? Hmmmmm

 

Richard

 

 

Hello all,

 

just been reading some of the older posts on group about S7 and O/f . One or two points (no pun) that does stand out are the check rail clearances and the switch rail clearances. But if you want to be able to have other peoples locos/stock to run on your layout you have to have consistency, be it OF or S7. The option of the 31.5 in the points will work and improve the looks and hopefully the running.

But to improve the looks of the wheels you can reduce the depth of the flanges buy about 0.010" (0.25mm) that is 0.020" (0.50mm) off the Dia. as long as you dont adjust the thickness of the flange it should still run OK. I would alway say that to incorporate springing and or compensation will help running, no matter what gauge you use.

 

Off work with a broken wrist

 

OzzyO.

[Scale7JB]

You're right Ozzy, 31.5mm gauge does make things look a lot better, but it still wont give the quality of running that Scale7 provides. Honestly, I do firmly agree that if you are a sociable modeller that has a local club with plenty of 0fs, then Scale7 might not be for you... But what I would say is that the Scale7 society and it's principles are stretching ever further and wider, and more and more people are taking the plunge.

 

There are now test tracks being built as we speak, and track building is getting easier.....

 

Hopefully and eventually, the decision on wether to spend 500 hours building an engine that is nearly right and runs pretty well, or absolutely right with perfect running qualities won't be down to wether or not the local club only has 0fs and coarse scale on their oval loop..

 

My view on this topic is to ensure that Scale7 does NOT come across as elitist... a few people on this forum that I have met at shows would (I hope ) testify that I'm not elitist, and in fact very light hearted about it really... but Scale7 "IF IT IS FOR YOU" is a great set of principles to model to so why cheat (the word 'cheat' used in the loosest term) with 31.5?

 

JB.

[puffernutter]

I decided to go with S7 as my only venture into 7mm/ft and I'm glad that I have - however, I haven't actually got around to building a layout for any of my stock to run on, at all!

[Poggy1165]

I think it's undeniable that S7 looks better. You have only to look at the wheels of an S7 wagon to satisfy yourself of this. OFS is supposed to be the equivalent of EM, and I think that's probably about right. Better than 00 but in some ways less satisfying than P4. (A personal opinion, chaps, I am not having a dig at anyone's choice of standards.)

 

The main problem is space. I don't have room for 7-8 foot radius curves, and ideally larger curves still are wanted. I suppose I might be able to build a very modest shunting plank, and, if I was starting from scratch, this might tempt me.

 

As it is, I'm afraid S7 will have to wait for another lifetime, when hopefully I shall reincarnate as the Duke of Devonshire or an Arab oil sheikh and have a vast amount of space to use.

 

I think the key question is - will I be able to accommodate a S7 layout that is going to satisfy me long-term? If the answer to that is 'yes' then I think a new starter should at least give S7 a serious consideration.