Loksound V4 in Hornby A4

[Cooped]

Hi

 

I'm new to this forum, but I post a bit on the Hornby forum and am still very much a newbie in many respects. I recently installed a Loksound V4 sound decoder bought from Rails of Sheffield in the tender of my Hornby A4 Kingfisher from the Rare Bird train pack. I have a couple of things that are niggling me. In the user manual section 13.2 it talks about the 'Prime mover start up delay', supposedly making the brake release sound, cylinders filling with steam then moving off. In reality what happens is the whistle makes a short blow then it moves off. Is this a result if the SWD sound blow or should it still be making the brake/steam sound? More annoying to me is the chuff sounds do not start until the loco has reached at least I think speed step 5 so it makes no chuffing sound until it's reached a certain speed so sounds funny as the chuffs don't start slow and build up they start fast. They are at the correct 6 chuffs per wheel revolution though, I did manage to adjust that.

 

Second I can't get the brake squeal to work at all. I've tried adjusting CV 65 as stated in the ESU manual but it hasn't helped.

 

Lastly, at least for now, when the loco comes to a stop the sound often drops out completely for a couple of seconds.

 

any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

Dan

[Cooped]

I should probably add that I am using an NCE Powercab controller.

Dan

[HLT 0109]

Dan,

 

I have a Railroad A4 with SWD sound on a Locksound V3.5 and I have two of the "problems" you refer to: (1) there is always a brief whistle followed by steam sound before the loco moves off; (2) I cannot get the brake sound to function. I guess therefore that these are features of the SWD sound but you could consult SWD about it.

 

I also have a Bachmann Class 105DMU with Howes sound on a Locksound V4 but I believe there are still problems with V4. I say I "have" the loco - actually it has been back with Howes for two months (through my supplier of the loco) and I understand they are awaiting a new supply of chips as they suspect the installed one may be faulty. The problem I experienced was that there seemed little if any corelation between the sound and loco movement.

 

I also use NCE Powercab but I think that is not a relevant issue. None of this helps cure your problems but perhaps suggests where you might look for meaningful help.

 

Harold.

[Cooped]

Hi Harold,

 

thanks, I will write an email to SWD to get their opinion. My main 'problem' is I don't get the steam sound before the loco moves off, it is just a pause, then the whistle then is moves, and then about 5 seconds later the chuffs start, but by then it's accelerated to a point where the chuffs start at a fairly fast rate. I was fiddliing around this afternoon and I found that if reduce the acceleration rate significantly then start off at speed step one, wait the 5 seconds then start the acceleration it sounds ok, but of course that's a bit of a pain.

 

I'm hoping there is nothing wrong with my decoder as I'm in the US so returning it would be a bit a little awkward.

 

Thanks again

 

Dan

[HLT 0109]

Dan,

 

Yes, it can be a bit of a pain waiting for the loco to move - depends how prototypical you want to be - but I do always get the steam sound and all the chuffs. I don't normally start at step 1, usually I wait at step 5 until the loco moves. It is a pity there is no brake sound but I also curse the excessive brake sound on my Hornby Britannia fitted with a sound chip from Digitrains; the brake sound appears to be either on or off and IMHO is too much of a screech.

 

Harold.

[DougN]

I also have the same problem/ concerns as I have practically the same set up from the same supplier and the same programing (IE SWD).

 

AS I have a couple of very knowledgable members close to me (SRman and Neil S Woods)we have all noted the same problem. The concensus was it may be due to the programing upgrade from the V3.5 to the V4. I have a 3.5 A4 with sound also so can conpare the 2 very easily.

 

I will bow to the more knowledgable on the subject. The thoughts are it is conversion process that has screwed up the starting point and the drop outs which you and I are experiencing.

 

On another side track. I have tried the 20mm speaker in the space and found it terrible. Neil has "lent" me a bass enhanced speaker 20x 40 which you have to cut the weight in the tender to install but the sound is so much better I would recommend this alteration. The other thing is this is a 8ohm speaker rather than the 4 ohm (20mm round)

[M Graff]

You do know that an 8 Ohm speaker will be much quieter than a 4 Ohm? Two 8 Ohm speakers in parallel on the other hand works fine.

[Cooped]

Hi all, thanks for the further replies. I had a reply from SWD. This is the email conversation:

 

In the user manual section 13.2 it talks about the 'Prime mover start up delay', supposedly making the brake release sound, cylinders filling with steam then moving off. In reality what happens is after a pause the whistle makes a short blow then it moves off. Is this a result of the SWD sound blow or should it still be making the brake/steam sound?

 

 

This is how it was created for the V3.5. ESU produced the manual and the v4 decoder but didn’t release the software until last week some 6 months later. Therefore we could only convert v3.5 projects to run on the v4 decoder, not create new projects from scratch. This will be addressed but may take time.

 

 

Secondly once the loco starts to move after the whistle blow the chuffing doesn't start until after about 3 seconds, by which time the loco has accelerated a bit so the chuffing starts at a fairly high rate (I have adjusted the chuff rate so it does the correct 6 chuffs per revolution). How can I fix this?

 

 

You cannot change the project it is as it is.

 

Also I can't get the brake squeal to work at all. I've tried adjusting CV 65 as stated in the ESU manual but it hasn't helped.

 

 

The brake squeal is only the last bit as the loco comes to a holt. Not a long squeal.

 

Lastly, at least for now, when the loco comes to a stop the sound often drops out completely for a couple of seconds.

 

 

This was very evident on the real thing. When the train stops there is a silence.

 

Now that I know it will only be a short brake squeal as it comes to a halt I hear it, no problem. Biggest problem in my mind is the delay before chuffs start. I don't mind the time delay before it starts, but wish you could hear the steam cylinders filling etc. In case there is some confusion to what I mean I see 2 delays, the first is the advertised 'prime mover' delay where according to the manual there should be the steam cylinders filing and brake release, absent because of the delay on software for the v4. Then the loco starts to move after the whistle, but (and this is my main gripe) the chuffs do not start until the loco reaches speed step 3 or 4. Sounds like this could be fixed with a new project written for the v4 software, but SWD did not say this specifically. I'll ask.

 

Regarding the speaker, I had to perform some surgery to fit the supplied ESU speaker, removing some of the weight. I must admit I'm not 100% happy with the quality of the sound and was thinking about a speaker change. A little nervous though given the problems I had getting the one supplied to fit! I'll see if I can get hold of the bass reflex speaker and give it a go. Do you have any advice on the fitting? This was my first go at it so probably wasn't the smoothest of processes!

 

Yes, M Graff I guess we should expect the volume to be quieter in an 8ohm speaker, I'm shivering at the thought of trying to fit 2 of them in there though!

 

By the way, SWD did say I could send my decoder in for a reblow once they have the v4 software projects in place. Not sure if I'll be doing that yet, depends on the differences it will result in. Not too easy for me to send in as I live in the USA.

 

Dan

 

 

[pauliebanger]

The current issue of Hornby Magazine (Issue 51, just out) has all the detail you need regarding fitting sound (and a lot more!) into Hornby's A4 - detailed description and lots of photos to help.

 

There is an electronic version available for overseas readers, I believe. (See www.hornbymagazine.com)

 

The conversion actually uses a Zimo MX645 decoder, but the installation of decoder and speakers will be similar for the Lok V4. (Lok 3.5 needs different speakers).

 

Using two 8ohm speakers in parallel will give you a 4ohm load so no problem. The sound quality and volume levels from these (28mm) speaker are awesome. No, really, they are!!

 

The custom sound has the loco clear cylinders and blow 'start whistle' before moving. First exhaust beat (Chuff) starts as soon as the loco moves off, and there is a lengthy, but user adjustable, braking sound.

 

For those in the UK this loco can be seen and heard on HM's layout 'Bolsover and Seven Lane Pit' currently touring the exhibition circuit. (ask the operators to turn the volume up - you'll be amazed).

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Cooped]

Thanks Paul, I look forward to reading that. I do subscribe to Hornby Magazine, take a little while to arrive over here, but well worth the wait in my opinion.

 

 

[Cooped]

Hi Paul,

 

I just found your you-tube videos on the Hornby 4MT sound, a pleasure to make your acquaintance sir! Unfortunately my subscription to Hornby magazine only started in January of this year. I do have a 4MT however so maybe this will be my next project if I can get hold of the back issues.

 

Regards

Dan

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The custom sound has the loco clear cylinders and blow 'start whistle' before moving. First exhaust beat (Chuff) starts as soon as the loco moves off, and there is a lengthy, but user adjustable, braking sound.

 

Does this mean that Zimo have included the distinctive A4 chime whistle on the project?

[pauliebanger]

Hi Paul,

 

I just found your you-tube videos on the Hornby 4MT sound, a pleasure to make your acquaintance sir! Unfortunately my subscription to Hornby magazine only started in January of this year. I do have a 4MT however so maybe this will be my next project if I can get hold of the back issues.

 

Regards

Dan

 

 

Dan,

 

 

Thank you. Glad you liked the 4MT - Smoke, Lights, Action!!. Ha Ha.

 

There was a lot of work to go with that, all downloadable from the Hornby Magazine website. An Audacity sound editor tutorial (with a small error in one sound file, sorry), ZSP tutorial and the sound files to practice making your own Zimo sound project. (Also work in loksound after lokprogrammer has downgraded them to 16kHz, ha ha!).

 

The links are dificult to find, so here they are:

 

http://www.hornbymag...torial_Pack.exe

 

and

 

http://www.hornbymag...SP_Tutorial.zip

 

My articles have been scanned and posted to the Zimo website, several months after publication date. Scroll down on the page until you come to the purple entries - these are the English contributions, mostly my work, but not uploaded by me.

 

http://www.zimo.at/w...essespiegel.htm

 

If you have HM from January onwards, you will also have seen my Class 37 stuff.

 

Good luck with it all. At least there is a pretty good decoder manual in existence to help you.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[DougN]

Cooped, The Bass enhanced speaker of about 20 x40 fitts quite nicely and with some black tack around the outside of the speaker to the chassis. (Speaker pointing down) works quite well. you do have to cut about half of of the weight but I notice that you already mentioned that you had to cut the weight any way. The sound is much improved.

 

The speakers can be ordered from Howes, DCC supplies and others. If you really need to I will take a photo of the speaker install in my Silver link if you need them.

[Cooped]

Doug,

 

I've been scouring the net for speakers and I think I found the one you are refering to. I may order a variety and play around a bit.

 

Dan

[Cooped]

Recieved my copy of Hornby magazine yesterday, have to say I hadn't considered hacking the tender apart that much, although does seem a rather excellent way of fitting fairly large speakers in. My hesitation comes from not being confident enough about my skills yet to make modifications that could be potentially visible from the outside. Regarding the 4MT, my version has the BR1B tender so I'd need to perform somewhat of a hack job on that too I think. Anyway, I have a couple of the 20mm x 40mm bass reflex speakers suggested by Doug on order so we'll see what we can do with those.

 

Paul regarding the zimo decoder you use, will there be A4 sounds available like the 4MT sounds are?

 

Thanks

Dan

[John YouChoos]

A good collection of UK steam (and diesel) sounds are also available on CT decoders too. A4 is one of a growing list that I've put together at YouChoos... refer to www.YouChoos.co.uk website for details.

My sounds sets will also be available for Zimo sound decoders soon, although CT's decoders are smaller, so often preferred in tight installs (particularly steam locos).

John

[pauliebanger]

Recieved my copy of Hornby magazine yesterday, have to say I hadn't considered hacking the tender apart that much, although does seem a rather excellent way of fitting fairly large speakers in. My hesitation comes from not being confident enough about my skills yet to make modifications that could be potentially visible from the outside. Regarding the 4MT, my version has the BR1B tender so I'd need to perform somewhat of a hack job on that too I think. Anyway, I have a couple of the 20mm x 40mm bass reflex speakers suggested by Doug on order so we'll see what we can do with those.

 

Paul regarding the zimo decoder you use, will there be A4 sounds available like the 4MT sounds are?

 

Thanks

Dan

 

Dan,

 

I think the term 'hacking' is a little prejudicial - there was a somewhat more care taken than that implies, especially for readers of this post who may not read the original article. Ha Ha. But I know what you mean, and the spirit you intended.

 

The concepts of the 4MT and A4 were different from the outset.

 

The 4MT installaton, using the BR1B tender, was designed to make as little change to the model as possible. The only permanent alterations I can recall was to drill small holes for the speaker wires in the base of the coal bunker, the hole for the firebox glow and the weathering applied to the whole loco. Everything else is reversible. The only external change is the addition of real coal to cover the speaker, and the connecting wires between loco and tender.

 

It used the same 20 x 40 mm speaker used in the so called bass-relex units, but without the enclosure. The enclosure was then formed by sealing the speaker into the coal bunker without major surgery. The coal bunker was left intact.

 

The A4 was destined for the exhibition circuit, so a good sound system and excellent running were the most important considerations. However, apart from the real coal covering the speakers, there is no outward difference from the standard model. (Working loco lamps and weathering apart). It may look like drastic surgery, but all I really did was to cut out the bunker to make room for the speakers. Because of the model's design, it was not difficult to do this without altering the external appearance. I used a modelling knife and fine files. If you followed my link to the articles given above, you will have read that.

 

The decoder used in the A4 has a 3W amplifier, and can make good use of the potential afforded by the speakers to give high output with no distortion. If you have only heard LoksoundV3.5 or Digitrax sound decoders before, you will, like most prople, be amazed at how loud the sounds produced are. (I do not know the specifications of CT decoders). Remember, some of the portable add on speakers for i-pods etc use only 1W per channel, so this gives some indication.

 

Regarding the Zimo sound project. This again was produced for a very specific set of circumstances - an express train passing through the scene. Whilst all the necessary sounds are present, they will need to be re-configured to produce a well balanced project for general release.

 

In principle, I don't see any reason why that should not happen. In fact, I am converting 4 A4s for someone at the moment to the same specification so I will need to develop the project fully to satisfy that work, so yes, it is quite likely to be available soon. (He's just taken delivery of the converted, brand new, Silver Link, and is delighted with it.)

 

Paul

[John YouChoos]

To clarify decoder outputs...

 

Zimo's small-scale decoders:

MX648 (very tiny) gives 1W - great for N

MX646 (again, pretty small, equiv of Lok Micro V4) gives 1W - again, suitable mainly for N

MX645/644 (equiv of normal Lok V4) gives 3W, same as Lok v4

 

CTs small-scale sound decoders:

SL75 (small - equiv of Lok Micro V4) gives 1W - great for N

SL51-4 (equiv of normal Lok V4) also gives 1W, so not quite so good as the competition now

 

LokSound v4:

Normal V4 gives 3W

Micro V4... not sure what this gives - can someone confirm... suspect it is lower than normal V4?

 

The output level is important for sure, but reality is that you only need high volume in a very large room, such as at an exhibition. The average home-layout you'll have to reduce the volume on a Lok V4 anyway, or you'll end up with a headache. Here, 1W is adequate... accepted, not 'as' good, but still good.

 

John

[M Graff]

Loksound V4 micro:

32 Mbit flash memory, 12 bit dynamic range, 8 sound channels and 3 W class "D" audio amplifier.

[John YouChoos]

...thanks... wasn't sure about the Micro, thanks for checking it up for us!

3W is impressive stuff from the little fellow!

[pauliebanger]

John YouChoos, on 22 August 2011 - 20:24 , said:

 

...thanks... wasn't sure about the Micro, thanks for checking it up for us!

3W is impressive stuff from the little fellow!

 

 

 

It would be if it was true. Some publications showed Micro as 3W and loksound v4 1.4W. Most of us put that down to transposition typos, especially as the same manual showed the loksound V4 total output at 0.75A and the Micro 1.1A !! These manuals are riddled with unlikely 'facts'. Either poor proof reading, or deliberate smoke and mirrors- who knows?

 

And what's all this guff about 12 Bit dynamic range? More marketing hype for the gullable to swallow? All the decoders mentioned use 8Bit resolution wav files. However, Zimo has a maximum 22kHz sampling rate, ESU is fixed at 16kHz and CT, I don't know.

 

Normal Lok V4 has 3W? Maybe, but there are lots of ways of expressing power output, such that 3W from one manufacturer is different to 3W from another (Peak, PMP, RMS etc) since none of the above quote what they are expressd in, 3W can be misleading.

 

What I can tell you is that the Zimo MX645's 3W is louder than LokV4's 3W, using the same project and the same speakers. More Voodoo?

 

However, power is not just about total volume. It plays a part in quality of sound too.

 

8 sound channels is impressive, though!

 

Paul

[M Graff]

Not to forget that the new Loksound V4 is made for 4 Ohm speakers! With a 8 Ohm it sounds very much less.

I tried a dual isobaric speaker after recommendations, with parallell coupled 8 Ohm speakers on my micro V4, and the sound was enormous!

The new amplifier is so much better than the previous versions.

 

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

The Loksound website on www.esu.eu gives both Micro and V4 as 1.8W amplification power.

 

3Watts is, I suspect, the total output that the decoder will stomach in terms of motor and function power outputs and has little to do with the sound amplifier power. That latter figure is not quoted on the tech spec but I note that the four functions are 250ma each but only 500ma total. Nothing new there then.

 

I also note that a speaker is supplied with both decoders and, in terms of dimensions, have not changed either.

 

I don't know where this 12bit dynamic range comes from but none of it is quoted on the website although the decoder manual is less happy about telling you the bit rate. The only clue is that the memory is now 'twice the previous' in terms of time at 32Mbit and all my V3.5's are 16Mbit (apart from one really old one at 8Mbit ) so it is a safe assumption that the sound files are still 16Khz and 8bit mono as before.

 

What we don't know is how the decoder changes or reads these files in the project as you load it/play it.

 

As always, the proof is in the eating and sound remains the subjective subject it always was.

 

If this thread continues along these lines I will rename it since it has wandered a long way off topic.

[silverlink]

I have been using sound in Hornby A4's for quite a while now for my exhibition layout 'Haymarket Cross' without any problems. I have bought many loco's from Rails of Sheffield & can only say they give a brilliant service. However, whilst they now sell sound decoders they are basiclly bought in & not of their own manufacture. I have only ever purchased from two sound 'specialists' most of my sounds are done for me by 'Olivia's trains of Sheffield' with I think just one from 'Howes of Oxford'. With sound decoders been, in my opinion rather complicated I wanted someone I could trust & talk to should I encounter any problems. Neil Bishop & his right hand man 'Dan' at Olivia's are truly brilliant at sorting out any little blips I have encounted & will do all they can to sort out your sound problems. Furthermore should you have any sound decoder purchased from them they will reblow them for free + postage for you. l would suggest you give them a call.

Cheers

silverlink