PenrithBeacon Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I've looked through RMweb and can't find a topic on this matter. Can anyone please point me to a drawing of a conversion of a 'B Set' to autotrailer working? I know there's one in Vol 2 of Russell but I'd quite like one with a better provenance if that's possible MTIA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I am not aware of any 'B' set conversions. There were two single 57' auto coaches 6818 and 6820 to diagram A32 based on previous B set brake compo designs. I have found no record of the pair being permenantly couples as a 'B' set. There were used as individual vehicles. Some non corridor D117 brake 3rds nos 4350/4364 were converted (A33) in a similar manor to the above but provided no first class accomodation. I have seen a simple 4mm conversion to one of these from a BSL kit. A further batch (A44) were converted and numbered straight into the auto coach sequence 245-256. A purpose built batch 1668 -1671 (A34) were also built but with one noticeable difference, the drivers door was recessed. Again, all these were treated as individual vehicles and not worked in permenantly coupled pairs. Some non corridor thirds were converted to run with these (and other auto coaches), the alterations allowing the auto gear to be worked through these coaches. For futher infomation see GWR Auto trailers - John Lewis Vol 2 page 297 onwards which covers it all in great detail Regards Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Thank you for the reply. You mention 6818 which is of interest to me as this vehicle was active on the former Cambrian lines in North Wales late 50s early 60s. According to 'Great Western Coaches 1890-1954' by Michael Harris this coach was part of E147 and, unless I've missed it, he doesn't mention A32 or A33 at all. It was because Mr Harris says it was part of E147 that I thought it must have been a conversion. Clearly I must get hold of a copy of GW Auto Trailers, thanks for the information. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 In fairness to Mike Harris, he wrote his book 45 years ago. A lot more information has appeared since then. I have checked the carriage register and the last batch of E147 were built on lot 1550. The 2x A32 coaches were also built on lot 1550. From the window/compartment layout, clearly the A32 is based on the E147 design with modifications, just tagged onto the end of the main build. I assume this is why Mike Harris had concluded they were both E147. Page 298 shows one of the A32 trailers in maroon at Oswestry. Both had further modification at Oswestry works with the fitting of ATC so clearly they were allocated to that area. Regards Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 23, 2011 In fairness to Mike Harris, he wrote his book 45 years ago. A lot more information has appeared since then. I have checked the carriage register and the last batch of E147 were built on lot 1550. The 2x A32 coaches were also built on lot 1550. From the window/compartment layout, clearly the A32 is based on the E147 design with modifications, just tagged onto the end of the main build. I assume this is why Mike Harris had concluded they were both E147. Page 298 shows one of the A32 trailers in maroon at Oswestry. Both had further modification at Oswestry works with the fitting of ATC so clearly they were allocated to that area. Regards Mike Wiltshire Page 296 has 6820 in GWR livery, the same picture as in Russells GWR coaches vol2 on page 238, on page 239 is an driving end shot showing the fittings required for auto trailer use. Russell also says "At the same time as 2 brake thirds were made as Auto trailers 2 brake composites were also converted". Suggesting they were built as normal as part of lot 1550 and then converted. EDIT: looking at the wheel base it is clear that there is more than just a driving cab different to the standard E147! The wheelbase shown on the diagram on page 297 of "autotrailers" has a 38' bogie centres. E147 has 41'6". Looking at side on shots the difference is very obvious. The position of the "Luggage" door is also closer to the end on the trailer version. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Russell also says "At the same time as 2 brake thirds were made as Auto trailers 2 brake composites were also converted". Suggesting they were built as normal as part of lot 1550 and then converted. Keith I take your point Keith. this is going to be one of those curiosities that leaves one with a decision as to which account is accurate. Personally, I believe the John Lewis account in Auto trailers for several reasons. I have just make a call to check the register again and there is no mention of any conversions on lot 1550 only specific builds, 6812/20 listed under diagram A32, Others numbers as E147. Conversions are clearly indicated. Next page is lot 1581 conversion of A18 - A20 no arguement of conversion here. I accept the diagram book has its issues. It is all hand written with corrections/crossing out in places. The build date of Oct 36 is consistent with the final batch of E147 so taking back in for a rebuild is unlikely. In Russell's Appendix, Vol 1 page 153 he has shortened his description to '6812 and 6820 were trailer cars' The official photograph shows the auto trailer, as built. again unlikely to be a rebuild after completion. The inaccuracies in the four Russell volumes are far too many to list. The GWSG has been running a continued correction series for the last couple of years. Again more accurate research unearths these gems. A recent set of sides made it to etching and were totally wrong on one side due to the CAD artist following Russell. The Russell comment "At the same time as 2 brake thirds were made as Auto trailers 2 brake composites were also converted". Based on the D117 build dates he has clearly got this the wrong way round. The D117/A33 conversion GA is dated January 1937 whereas the two coaches to become A33 left the factory in 1935. The Lewis information is based on the most recent and thoroughly researched material. Just one look at the sources is enough for me. In addition my source for the register also contributed to the Lewis book. Interesting one. Take your pick of which book(s) to follow. I have. Regards Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 The wheelbase shown on the diagram on page 297 of "autotrailers" has a 38' bogie centres. E147 has 41'6". Looking at side on shots the difference is very obvious. The position of the "Luggage" door is also closer to the end on the trailer version. Keith Just had a conversation with my coaching guru and it it is of our 'opinion' that the alteration to wheel base is due to the repositioning of the hand brake. With the coach leading when coupled to a loco the responsibility for the train passed to the driver and he would require a handbrake in the 'cab' to fulfil his duties and observe regulations. If anyone has any official information on this please post. regards Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 I take your point Keith. this is going to be one of those curiosities that leaves one with a decision as to which account is accurate. Personally, I believe the John Lewis account in Auto trailers for several reasons. My guess is that both accounts are accurate. I expect that the lot was intended to be all E147, but two of them were converted while being built. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 24, 2011 Just had a conversation with my coaching guru and it it is of our 'opinion' that the alteration to wheel base is due to the repositioning of the hand brake. With the coach leading when coupled to a loco the responsibility for the train passed to the driver and he would require a handbrake in the 'cab' to fulfil his duties and observe regulations. If anyone has any official information on this please post. regards Mike Wiltshire It's possible that because coaches in 'B' sets were quite often close-coupled or permanently coupled, that by having the longer wheelbase there is less 'throw-over' at the ends which would be desirable. The Auto-trailer 'conversion' looks more like a normal wheelbase for the length of carriage. My guess is that both accounts are accurate. I expect that the lot was intended to be all E147, but two of them were converted while being built. Adrian Seems quite likely. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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