edcayton Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Following a thread about interlaced tram tracks, plus today's news that the Edinburgh trams will (?) go to the city centre just made me wonder if there has been a topic on here. It seems to knock the Cambridge misguided busway into a cocked hat! Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 2, 2011 Following a thread about interlaced tram tracks, plus today's news that the Edinburgh trams will (?) go to the city centre just made me wonder if there has been a topic on here. It seems to knock the Cambridge misguided busway into a cocked hat! Ed On - Off - On - Off - On. etc. Typical british decision making at it's finest! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted September 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 2, 2011 Hi all, Sorry.... Can't have 'Trams and 'Edinburgh' in the same book - let alone sentance! Besides, we already tried the guided busway - that failed as well....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 How is it that a really good idea could be turned into the fiasco that is the Edinburgh Tramway? At least they didn't opt for the Haymarket fudge. Surely it proves the folly of Glasgow, London and virtually every other big British conurbation in dispensing with their guided transit systems in the first instance. Of course, they didn't have brown envelopes back then. Did they...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted September 3, 2011 Author Share Posted September 3, 2011 Besides, we already tried the guided busway - that failed as well....... You have? Do tell. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 3, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2011 You have? Do tell. Ed So did Birmingham - years ago: http://citytransport.info/Tracline65.htm Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I've just emailed the Guardian readers' editor requesting correction of some gross inaccuracies in this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/02/edinburgh-tram-back-on-track?INTCMP=SRCH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted September 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 4, 2011 You have? Do tell. Ed Hi Ed, A link with the information... http://www.tie.ltd.uk/tie_pro_fast.html Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Beats me why they don't "re-invent" the electric trolleybus. No track infrastructure, just twin high wires. With today's technology you could also have hybrids with battery power over short unwired (city centre) sections. Trolleybuses - cheap, quiet & pollution free (at point of use). Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Actually in my opinion the trolleybus is an expensive technological dead end. It can't be any bigger than a motor bus, so can't carry any more passengers, but because it's not mass produced it's nearly as expensive as the equivalent tram. Rubber tyres use more energy than a tram and trolleybus overhead is also twice as obtrusive. And motor buses are gradually reducing their noise and emissions. Thus motor buses are more suitable for lower-capacity routes and trams for high-capacity routes, leaving trolley buses with an ever-decreasing niche in between. Probably only appropriate for cities with major pollution problems or steep hills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekl Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Trolley buses are still in fairly widespread use in Europe, and many seem to be modern vehicles. I saw a hybrid version in Bologna some years back. It had a very noisy rear mounted diesel engine for use off wire - I suspect a relatively small engine driving a generator at what seemed to be constant speed, thus the racket. It was re-wired when entering the wired section by an automated device that guided the poles onto the wires, so the driver did not have to leave the cab. Having spent some time in my trolley bus driving days in Johannesburg re-wiring jumped poles, I was quite fascinated, but the rest of my party weren't, so I didn't get to see the whole process. It seemed that the buses ran on diesel in the town centre and on the wires outside, which seemed slightly contradictory in terms of pollution, but probably has something to do with remodeling the city centre roads and the need for some flexibility in operating (another inherent problem with these buses). I don't know, but I suspect they are being produced on production lines much as diesel buses. They are intrinsically more expensive, though, as the electrical equipment is, I am pretty sure, quite a lot more expensive than the diesel equivalent. The point about the efficiency rubber tyres as opposed to steel on steel is very valid. I don't see the trolley bus overhead as "twice" as obtrusive as tram/LRV overhead, since most of the obtrusiveness is in the supporting structure, not the wires. The advantage as far as installation is concerned is that all you need is overhead, trams need track, and the very expensive exercise of moving under road utilities away from track areas: you don't really want to be digging up tram track to repair a water main. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted September 4, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2011 Beats me why they don't "re-invent" the electric trolleybus. No track infrastructure, just twin high wires. With today's technology you could also have hybrids with battery power over short unwired (city centre) sections. Trolleybuses - cheap, quiet & pollution free (at point of use). Brit15 Agreed, gives most of the low emission advantage (at point of use at least) of the tram without much of the eye watering cost & chaos of digging the roads up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Beats me why they don't "re-invent" the electric trolleybus. No track infrastructure, just twin high wires. With today's technology you could also have hybrids with battery power over short unwired (city centre) sections. Trolleybuses - cheap, quiet & pollution free (at point of use). Brit15 All of the main P C V chassis manufacturers (Volvo, ADL, Optare especially) are offering either production or development version hybrid bus chassis already, also the "Borismaster" being developed jointly by TfL and Wrightbus is hybrid from its inception. But for all budding trolleybus drivers out there here is the main piece of advice- Rule 1 Do not overtake the vehicle in front . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Supertram is 10% maximum gradient and the trams need all axles motored, one reason why the spare Edinburgh trams can't be used to solve the tram shortage there. Trams in Lisbon manage steeper than that (not sure how). A trolleybus should go up any gradient a motor bus can handle, but faster. The hybrid chassis mentioned by R A Watson are mainly aimed at the motor bus market, and imply that electric transmission will probably become mainstream in buses. Both of these developments will lessen the cost differential between the motor bus and the trolleybus, but will also reduce the environmental reasons to choose a trolleybus over a motor bus. From a quick Google search western Europe had 46 trolleybus systems in 1998, but I don't think there have been any new ones since. This compares with something over 150 tram systems. It is unsurprising that the trolleybus systems that already exist in western Europe are investing in new vehicles, as like tramways they have to meet public expectations of level boarding to the vehicle. Eastern Europe has more trolleybus systems, but many of their smaller tram systems have shut down since the demise of Communism and given that the trolleybuses tend to be in smaller cities with less public transport demand, and the cost of re-equipping versus replacement with diesels, I'd not be surprised if many of them disappeared too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Supertram is 10% maximum gradient and the trams need all axles motored, one reason why the spare Edinburgh trams can't be used to solve the tram shortage there. Trams in Lisbon manage steeper than that (not sure how). A trolleybus should go up any gradient a motor bus can handle, but faster. I'm not sure of the maximum grade in Lisbon worked by regular adhesion trams, but there are a few funiculars including one worked by a pair of powered trams connected by a cable over a freewheeling pulley and easily identified by the pantographs on the roofs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Breaking News. Mac. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy Angus Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 The date is a bit small, that having been said anything's possible with trams in Edinburgh. Roddy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 According to the Facebook page of the Queensferry & District Community Council: 'Edinburgh Trams have announced that the overhead power lines and test track at Gogar Depot will start to go live from the 11th October 2011.' Jeremy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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