Boris Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 If I'd being taking your PTS exam and there had been any reference at all to the use of a camera on your part I would have been asking all about your Lookoutman - people alone lineside with a camera are often in the same league as people lineside with a mobile 'phone, the last thing they tend to be concentrating on is personal safety. However a mobile phone is like any other tool, extremely useful when used correctly and in the right place. I was quite surprised to find that the instructions on using mobile phones on the lineside were only included in PTS information relatively recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 </p> . Do those include Railway Workers or are they just the dumb public? I would think that a more comparable figure would be per mile - though even that would be influenced by little-used track. Perhaps unit miles traveled? Total deaths, total injuries, Kenton. You can figure out the other stats! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2011 However a mobile phone is like any other tool, extremely useful when used correctly and in the right place. I was quite surprised to find that the instructions on using mobile phones on the lineside were only included in PTS information relatively recently. But at least the 'Southall incident' was included in a safety video (probably now long forgotten) back in the early 1990s - the video showed quite well the, hmm, 'impact' of standing in the four foot while talking on your mobile 'phone when the four foot in question happened to be a live 125mph running line. The use of mobile 'phones in a situation when their use might threaten personal safety by interfering with the ability to hear approaching trains or warning signals has been prohibited since way back in the 1990s (definitely appears in the 1998 revision and was around before then although I haven't got the old pages to check the exact date - the only recent change has been to specifically mention mobile'phones as a result of a fatality). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2011 Well, do we hang him, flog him or merely transport him to the colonies? Now it's not perhaps the cleverest thing to do, but in terms of social irresponsibility it's not up there with drink driving, breaking the speed limit, overtaking in stupid places ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Piszczek Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Well, do we hang him, flog him or merely transport him to the colonies? If he gets that close over here, there is an even chance a loose steel band, or hunk of pulpwood, or other flying bit could well turn him into a Darwin Award nominee... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Quite why 70 year olds should be trespassing on the railway is beyond my past experience Dementia ? Deteriorating sight and hearing ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 If he gets that close over here, there is an even chance a loose steel band, or hunk of pulpwood, or other flying bit could well turn him into a Darwin Award nominee... Now I have an image of him being chased down the line by a bunch of escaped Carribean percussionists. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 </p>But most people do not have access to the "rulebook" and have to rely on clear and obvious signage, impenetrable security fencing, and a large measure of common sense (something that appears lacking in many). In this particular case it looks to me as if the signage and fencing were possibly inadequate - how many of the public understand the meaning of that sign. Though it is certain that the individual was severely lacking in common sense. No! This individual is old enough and ugly enough to realise a fence of any description means "keep out", yet deliberately chose to take a "calculated risk" that he could get a marginally better vantage point and "get away with it". As Rugd has explained, he must have accessed that piece of lineside fencing from private property. He may not know the rule book inside out and backwards, but as someone who I expect would call himself "an enthusiast", he surely knows that he should not be trespassing on the railway, nor crossing private land to get there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 ...Quite why 70 year olds should be trespassing on the railway is beyond my past experience Nothing to do with old blokes' obsessions and steam trains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2011 Well, do we hang him, flog him or merely transport him to the colonies? Now it's not perhaps the cleverest thing to do, but in terms of social irresponsibility it's not up there with drink driving, breaking the speed limit, overtaking in stupid places ..... It is as high if not higher than any of the above if you are the one who hits him / scrapes him up afterwards / witnesses the event ... It's potentially distressing but unless there's a fluke turn of events not life threatening to anyone except the culprit whereas all the forms of driving transgressions have taken the lives of innocents in the past. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 not life threatening to anyone except the culprit You'll be happy to go and clear up 200 yards of body parts and advise the next of kin then. Nobody is using the topic to discuss parallel stupidity and selfishness really so I think this tack is somewhat superfluous. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2011 ....Nobody is using the topic to discuss parallel stupidity and selfishness really so I think this tack is somewhat superfluous. Beg to differ, I think there's merit in pointing out the inconsistencies in the way we view transgressions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Fair enough Neil. Come and have a talk with some of the drivers I know who have been unlucky enough to hit people and see how unaffected they are by it all. What if little Johnny playing in a field nearby sees the bloke there and afterwards, seeing that grown ups do it, decides to go over the fence oblivious to the approaching Pendo...? There is no place for moral relativism in this situation. If you ever have to deal with the aftermath of such an incident you'll understand why we take such a dim view of railway trespass. Dave. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I do my "railfanning" on the WCML out of my loft window these days. Not fell out--- YET !!! Yes, the guys a pratt. The modern railway is no place for trespass, as our H&S culture proves. However, how many of us, many, many years ago went trespassing as a matter of course, steam shedbashing in particular ?. Yes we had more common sense back then, no H&S to "protect" us. Simple rules were the order of the day, dont step on the rail, wet sleepers, pointwork, jump over pits, keep a 360 deg lookout for moving locos, wagons, shedmasters (!!) etc. Strange world we now live in. Everyone is / has to be politically correct, AND prove it also. What would I have done?, well, a quick, polite word to him re his situation, and perhaps a call to the police if deemed neccesary. Glad I'm not a modern railfan. I only open the loft window when I hear a steam loco thundering up Boars Head bank. Brit15 Edited September 5, 2011 by APOLLO 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I think this "enthusiast" is getting so much stick, and rightly so, is that he's letting us ALL down by his stupidity. Regards, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2011 I don't see what safety, whether "health & safety at work", or rules/laws to protect the public who are not at work both from obvious hazards or from their own folly, has to do with "political correctness". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) It's just become a Daily Mail pet buzzword Pete and as such it just gets bandied about without any real thought as to its relevance or even its origins as a phrase. Apollo, we do understand where you're coming from with your comparison from earlier times, but the world and society has changed hugely since then; not for the better in too many aspects but we are where we are and the sensibilities that exist today are unlikely to change back any time soon. Dave. Edited September 5, 2011 by Max Stafford 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 Dave - thanks for those sensible words mate, as someone who has experienced what you mention above, not to mention several near misses, it means a lot Apollo - I did make a polite attempt to have a word in his shell like, unfortunately I was met with blank stares and plain ignorance... [Just to add, I've made a (failed!) attempt at sending the pics to the BTP, but have managed to send them to Nigel Harrris of Rail Magazine, and posted one of them on flickr. Looking back, I wish I'd taken down the reg number of his car at the time but alas it's too late now]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2011 I've had to explain being on or near the railway line to the BTP on two separate occasions. The first was at Kirton Lindsay where a public footpath drops into a cutting, then travels along the cutting for about 75 yds and then crosses the line and goes up the opposite embankment. I was on the footpath very close to the ballast and was reported by a concerned member of the public. The second was at a military base on a section of track that connected to the exchange sidings. In this case, they just happened to see me as they drove past. In both cases they were satisfied that I had a good and proper reason to be on or near the tracks, but did explain that they had a duty to investigate and if necessary apprehend the culprit. A few weeks later we caught an 'enthusiast' armed to the teeth with a couple of cameras bags who had just climbed over the railway gate into the camp which was a restricted area.. I say 'we' caught him, actually it was the German Shepherd Dog that caught him. One thing the 'enthusiast' learned that night, was that it doesn't matter how much baggage you throw away in your flight to freedom, you will not outrun an army guard dog over 50 yards. Having satisfied ourselves that he was no a terrorist and had the medic patch up the holes in his behind and arms, we handed him over to our local police Sgt, who on hearing this guys complaints about how he'd been mauled by this cross between an Alligator and a Velociraptor, had difficulty in keeping a straight face. Although a humorous story, it does have the same message. Don't trespass. The fence is there for a reason Regards Richard 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 What a prat! In the mid 90's I trespassed onto the railway a few times. I was up to no good and was a pretty stupid thing then as it would be now. Like has been previously said, the H+S rules aren't there just to protect idiots like him, but the poor sods who have to slam on the brakes and pick up the 'remains'. Theres the other aspect of selfishness, if said driver has to apply the emergency brake, thats surely gonna piss off a few hundred passengers trying to get where they're going on time. There's plenty of bridges and fields with amazing vantage points. Has anyone ever considered building purpose built vantage points, same as you get at sites of natural beauty etc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I know a guy who did this on the Settle line, got the reg and a decent photo of the trespasser and the BTP prosecuted the offending person. It does work. I don't know if he was before Dave's (Max Stafford's) time, but a certain BTP Inspector at Carlisle once nicked a dozen linesiders at Ais Gill by simply leaning over the bridge parapet and announcing "I don't need your names gentlemen, I have you car number plates. Expect a letter. " But at least the 'Southall incident' was included in a safety video (probably now long forgotten) back in the early 1990s - the video showed quite well the, hmm, 'impact' of standing in the four foot while talking on your mobile 'phone when the four foot in question happened to be a live 125mph running line. The only safety briefing I've ever had which I can still remember. As I recall the reconstruction was graphic enough but they interviewed the guy's widow on camera too. "I just want to say to everyone watching this please be careful because my little lad is never going to know his dad...". Kleenex all round. Edited September 5, 2011 by stuartp 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2011 Fair enough Neil. Come and have a talk with some of the drivers I know who have been unlucky enough to hit people and see how unaffected they are by it all. What if little Johnny playing in a field nearby sees the bloke there and afterwards, seeing that grown ups do it, decides to go over the fence oblivious to the approaching Pendo...? There is no place for moral relativism in this situation. If you ever have to deal with the aftermath of such an incident you'll understand why we take such a dim view of railway trespass. Dave. I wholeheartedly agree Dave - anyone who has had the task of picking up the pieces and chucking them in black plastic sacks is never keen to be called out to the next one. And you know and I know that we are not talking about bodies, especially where trains travelling at speed have been involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUTLER2579 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I wholeheartedly agree Dave - anyone who has had the task of picking up the pieces and chucking them in black plastic sacks is never keen to be called out to the next one. And you know and I know that we are not talking about bodies, especially where trains travelling at speed have been involved. I regret to say "been there & worn the T shirt . On the Metropolitan Line of LT a maximum speed through Neasden of about 70 miles an hour still makes such a mess of a person that finding a human foot can be a difficult process.As Dave says the effect on a driver can last for ever and ruin a persons or families life. Saw it many times whilst working for LT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Quite why 70 year olds should be trespassing on the railway is beyond my past experience Nothing to do with old blokes' obsessions and steam trains? In my experience I think that's quite likely, I tend to avoid going out for steam specials as they are guaranteed to bring out the numpties... If he gets that close over here, there is an even chance a loose steel band, or hunk of pulpwood, or other flying bit could well turn him into a Darwin Award nominee... And the same over here....take a look back at RAIB reports over the last few years, an open container door, some loose tanktainer cladding or a broken stantion on a steel carrier wouldn't be good to meet at 60/75mph... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted September 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2011 ......... Quite why 70 year olds should be trespassing on the railway is beyond my past experience I intercepted one walking her dog up the four-foot on the Robin Hood Line back in 1993. A few days afterwards I was sitting in the front of a DMU at Newstead Station with an HMRI Inspector and the local BT Police Sergeant during a test run when a family with a child in a pram came out of the pub and crossed the line about 10 yards in front of us. They were duly apprehended and cautioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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