artizen Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Have you tried skinning the bottom surface (the surface that is going to be glued down onto the board) with PVA applied with a brush and letting it dry then adding superglue to it so you can then place it on the board? That way the superglue is all you are waiting to dry instead of a layer of wet glue which is giving you grief because the air can't get to it. Skinning the top surface with PVA will not give a rigid skin but should help close the pores of the foam and stop any dust or loose bits. Paint would then fill in the surface ready for surfacing with scenics. Applying wet paper strips soaked in glue would do the same. The foam is then used to hold up any trees and fence posts except that you will only get one go at that as the foam has no ability to close up again once a hole has been made. If you change your mind, the tree becomes loose in the hole and gets all droopy. I am using florist foam under the surface of my scenic areas to give me something to push the trees down into and it is a problem when the tree goes in slightly skewed, you can't easily fix it except by moving it to another location. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted September 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2011 Mike for buildings I paint on a thin plaster mix that's got PVA added so it goes on fairly smooth a bit like yoghurt consistency it also works for landscapes. This can then be sanded if required or even mixed with paint or sand for colour and texture before starting with grass layers. PVA on it's own could be mixed with emulsion to give a good skin or I've also used cheap masonry paint which seems to form a tough skin. I find the foam is pretty resilient and no more probe to damage than plaster bandage on normal polystyrene sheets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Once again many thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I did have a go at brushing neat PVA onto the foam, and as suggested it does seal it but does not make it rigid. I got really fed up looking a naked pink foam so decided it was time to do something about. First job was to redrill the catenary post holes at the revised 21.5mm spacing and refixing in place. I then added the ballast to the outer side of the cable conduits by initially brushing on PVA and then doing an initial sprinkle over the glue and then when set add a second layer to shape, spray on wet water and finish with WS Scenic Cement. Finally a quick coat of green acrylic paint over the foam, a coat of PVA and a sprinkle of WS Blended Turf: Green Blend. To apply the turf I used an old empty talcum powder bottle by prising off the top, filling, and then reapplying the top. This worked amazingly well as not only could I sprinkle it, but sort of puff it out at the same time. At least something went well. Anyway some photos: Close up of the new ballasting. Strictly speaking it should be a finer grade of ballast than used on the tracks, but to be honest I could not think of a way of getting any the same colour. Some errant grains need picking off I took care to align the catenary poles before appling the glue to the ballast. Somehow, and I havn't a clue how, they have dried out out of alignment. Hopefully I can straighten them but might have to dig out some of the ballast around the bases and reapply. Finally the money shot. You know I am quite pleased with this. Need to tackle those trees on the skyline now. Don't hold your breath! P.S Obligatory Swiss cows now on order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Madog Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Looking good! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks. I have brushed off the loose ground foam from the glued areas. It is slightly threadbare in places so tomorrow I will sprinkle some more down and then soak in Scenic Cement. Hopefully that will fix it better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Have you tried skinning the bottom surface (the surface that is going to be glued down onto the board) with PVA applied with a brush and letting it dry then adding superglue to it so you can then place it on the board? That way the superglue is all you are waiting to dry instead of a layer of wet glue which is giving you grief because the air can't get to it. Skinning the top surface with PVA will not give a rigid skin but should help close the pores of the foam and stop any dust or loose bits. Paint would then fill in the surface ready for surfacing with scenics. Applying wet paper strips soaked in glue would do the same. The foam is then used to hold up any trees and fence posts except that you will only get one go at that as the foam has no ability to close up again once a hole has been made. If you change your mind, the tree becomes loose in the hole and gets all droopy. I am using florist foam under the surface of my scenic areas to give me something to push the trees down into and it is a problem when the tree goes in slightly skewed, you can't easily fix it except by moving it to another location. Interesting idea regarding the superglue approach. Is this something you have tried, because I believe superglue needs moisture to make it go off? An alternative is use a glue that depends on chemical reaction only, like 5 minute epoxy. I did consider florists oasis and have some blocks to play with, but I found the pink foam cheaper and stronger so did not use them. Regarding tree planting if the hole is over large you can remove the tree, fill the hole with stiff Pollyfilla and push the tree into the hole. Prop up in a vertical position until the filler goes off. Not so good with static grass though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The foam is then used to hold up any trees and fence posts except that you will only get one go at that as the foam has no ability to close up again once a hole has been made. If you change your mind, the tree becomes loose in the hole and gets all droopy. I am using florist foam under the surface of my scenic areas to give me something to push the trees down into and it is a problem when the tree goes in slightly skewed, you can't easily fix it except by moving it to another location. Which type of floristry foam are you using, as it comes in the green 'wet' type and brown 'dry' type? I would suggest the dry type would be best as the green stuff is very crumbly and will disintigrate, and get very heavy, if it gets wet. Even when dry it still gets green dust all over the place. The dry foam is intended for artificial flowers and these are usually stuck in using a hot glue gun. You could use this for youir fence posts and trees and this would give you another chance if you didn't get them straight first time as the glue would help fill up the wrong hole. Just hold the tree or post in place until the glue cools You can use the glue gun on the green stuff too while it's dry, that's how the long trailing wedding bouquets are made, with the flowers wired and then glued back into the foam holder. It doesn't have that much strength as the foam can crumble away from the glued part. It should hold model trees and fences though. Go for the green type if you are using live trees though. Incidentally. it is available in blocks larger than the common 'brick' size. The gren stuff is available up to 55 x 32 x 23cm while the brown type comes in a 29 x 25 x 6cm 'plate'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks for that. I am only aware of the green stuff and as you say, it is very crumbly. Just as a comparison the pink foam I used comes in sheets 1200mm x 500mm x 52.5mm @ £4.99. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 A quick update. Impatience has gotten the best of me and I have flooded the turf with Scenic Cement using a pipette. I love the way it wicks through the foam. I mentioned earlier that I had used an old talcum powder bottle to apply the foam. This time I set the head to close the apertures down smaller and "puffed" more foam over the applied Scenic Cement. I got a nice even controllable layer over the cement so I am really happy with the use of the talcum powder bottle and recommend others give it a go as well. I just hope the cement has not wicked through the ballast or I will end up with grass growing over my ballast edges. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 You can also get what are sold as 'bases' which have a 2" layer of green floral foam bonded to a 1" layer of rigid foam. They come in, from memory, about 28" square, and half that size. It occurs to me they could possibly be used as baseboards with the floral foam removed from the trackbed to give a flat base for the track and shaped for the surrounding scenery. If you wanted a small circular layout you could use a wreath ring. I can't remember prices except that we used to charge 85p for the standard green block. It's a few years since I worked as a florist. I would imagine the stuff you are using is probably cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Again, thanks for the input Natalie. All useful information and I would hazard is new to anyone reading this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
artizen Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Just to clear up a few things before this hijack is over! I have not tried the superglue and PVA mix under foam but it works exceptionally well on foamboard or timber. It was a suggestion as I assume it would work. I will go and try it out as I have a need for foam landscaping soon. I have a full carton of the green florist foam - the brown option was never offered to me by the supplier so I did not know it even existed. It sounds like a much better product though - the green stuff is heavy and crumbly. Like the idea of filling in errant holes with something sticky that dries and holds - I should have thought of that but I was pushing the trees down through expensive grass mats at the time so a quick bush or tuft hides the small hole in the fabric and the tree is moved to another location. I like the green on the hill now - just needs breaking up with details such as small bushes and variations in grass colour etc. Any idea of the brand name of the rigid pink foam? At that price it is eminently suitable for large scale landscaping but I would need to find a local supplier here in Brisbane. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Things seem to be going from bad to worse! My fears were proved correct and I ended up with Scenic Cement wicked through the ballast so that when I added move grass foam some has stuck to the ballast. If I was allowed to swear here, I would (well I did anyway). So I then had the idea of applying neat pva brushed over the ballast and more ballast applied to cover the green foam. I suspect not all the grass was dry as I now have odd grains of ballast where I should not have. ARGHHHH! Of course what I should have done in both case (isn't hindsight a wonderful thing) is used a piece of card as a mask when applying a) the foam in the first place, B) the ballast in the second. Oh well you live and learn. I am very tempted to soak in water and then remove the ballast and/or foam and re-apply. Watch this space. The pink foam I use is Knauf "Space Board" which is intended as a loft insulation. More specifically it is intended to be placed on top of rafters in the loft which then have floorboards placed on top. I buy these from B&Q (a general DIY chain in the UK) in the insulation section. In reality it appears to be extruded polystyrene (not expanded which is the white stuff typically use as packaging/insulation). A more common trade name is Styrofoam. Extruded tends to be either pink or blue and is far denser that expanded polystyrene. it can be cut easily with a saw, sanded, shaped with a Surform or even cut with power tools. I have used an electric jig saw successfully. American modellers use it extensively and it is only just catching on in the UK. Looking to the future I am considering building future modules with a 12mm MDF base with Styrofoam (or Knauf equivalent) on top with hardboard edges glued with "No Nails". Once I have finished the current module I might give it a go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Water applied using a brush along ballast edges and grass and left to soak. Some 15 minutes later the errant areas were scraped off. All I can say is thank goodness the PVA I am using is not waterproof: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee m22 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Looking at the last picture, I can only imagine your frustration! The previous shot does actually look stonking though! Following a previous discussion we had on another thread, your ballast does look brilliant, and the cable troughs also look great! As for the use of the knauf foamm, I think it works wonders there. My layout is practically built from the stuff, but I've not done any final shaping yet. You mentioned about using plaster bandage to cover it initially, but mentioned you used PVA to seal it...did you use the plaster bandage in the end or just settle with the glue coating?? Hope the next attempt goes better, as the module does look great! Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Lee, Just the glue coating, primarily to seal it. Took advice from others that plaster bandage was probably overkill. What did you glue your foam with? Have you built a conventional frame to go with it? Frustrating yes, but I am using it as a learning exercise so it still proving valuable. If nothing else it is teaching me the best sequence to do things in, something I have got wrong todate. Having scraped the mess off, this time I have used masking tape alongside the cork over which I have painted my PVA, peeled it off, and sprinkled ballast over the glue. Hopefully this will give me a neater edge. This time when I do the grass I will use a card shield to stop it getting on the ballast but that is going to take a few more nights as I really must have the patience to let the glue go off properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Madog Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Mike, I just give the area I´d like to scenic a good coat of white glue and then generously sprinkle WS blended turf on it. After it has thoroughly st, I turn the module upside down, shake it gently to get rid off any excess material, which I capture for reuse. Applying scenic cement after putting on the green stuff effects a change in colour, as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 I cannot say I have noticed a change of colour as such, however I do feel the WS Blended Turf is too dark and does not capture the look I am trying to achieve so this setback could be a blessing in disguise. To be honest I am not convinced the colour I am looking for is produced by WS so may have to turn to Hornby's SkaleScenics. Good to hear what others use, as specifics like that are rarely stated. P.S. Looking at the earlier pictures the colour does look better (though possibly still too dark) however they were taken outside in natural light with the later one using artificial light. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee m22 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Lee, Just the glue coating, primarily to seal it. Took advice from others that plaster bandage was probably overkill. What did you glue your foam with? Have you built a conventional frame to go with it? Frustrating yes, but I am using it as a learning exercise so it still proving valuable. If nothing else it is teaching me the best sequence to do things in, something I have got wrong todate. Having scraped the mess off, this time I have used masking tape alongside the cork over which I have painted my PVA, peeled it off, and sprinkled ballast over the glue. Hopefully this will give me a neater edge. This time when I do the grass I will use a card shield to stop it getting on the ballast but that is going to take a few more nights as I really must have the patience to let the glue go off properly. Hi Mike. My layout - due to a lack of funds - was build with what was at hand. I have essentially build a pine frame around an uncut piece of the insulation foam. I've left the foam board projecting about two thirds above the frame, and a couple of supports on the undersides (basically a beading holding the foam from dropping while drying) The raised foam then can be shaped to gradient the landscapedown to the frame, and allows push rods for points to be inset without cutting through the frame. Really pleased with the results, but if I wasn't working with "at hand" materials, I would probably frame the foam with ply sheets cut to form the sides. Would be much lighter then. I would probably use more cross members too as the main downside the full sized foam board is quite noisey to run trains accross. I don't thing the frame has to be as 'substantial' as a wooden top design, as the board provides the strength. I've used neat PVA for the foam. It's a long time drying unfortunatly, and as it lacks a tacky quality on the foam, things slip around a lot while waiting, but next day, it's rock solid. Due to the heavy re-modelling of the house, there is a de-humidifier running in the rail room and this might have an effect on the glue drying, but I don't know for sure. Glad you have a positive outlook on the module. Fingers crossed the masking solves the issue and gets that crisp result! Looking forward to seeing more! Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Madog Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Mike, I am using WS medium green blended turf and, AFAIK, there is also a much lighter shade available. Swiss mountain meadows are in a fairly light green in Spring and early summer, so the light green might be a good choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Thanks Ulrich. WS do a lighter shade called "Burnt Grass" but again it does not do it for me. Fortunately Hornby SkaleScenics do a couple of shades which I think are much nearer so once I have finished re-ballasting I will give it a shot. Probably will not be until the weekend though. P.S. Cows have now arrived just waiting for that lush mountainside to graze on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 I am still experimenting with grass colours prior to re-grassing. First of all some photos just to set the scene taken at different times of the year. February: May: October: This is how I remember the colours and feel that the Woodland Scenics Green Blend does not capture it (more later). Today I hurriedly carried out a number of experiments in the garden in between showers and contending with quite a high breeze. Basically I layed out a number of Woodland Scenics and Hornby products for direct comparison: From left to right they are: A - Woodland Scenics Burnt Grass B - Hornby Martian Green (no I don't understand the name either) C - Hornby Spring Green D - Woodland Scenics Green Blend E - Hornby Grass Green Now here is the odd thing. To the naked eye colour 3 is the best match to my poor lawn (largely moss if the true be told) however in photographs the real grass comes out much darker. Strange. In fact in this photo the Woodland Scenics Green Blend is not too bad (although it does darken further if soaked). As an experiment I created a little sample using the Hornby Spring Green colour by sprading PVA and applying a base covering, then when dry soaking in Scenic Cement. Here is the result complete with obligatory small animal: The Hornby materials are available in fine, medium and course. Now when they say fine, they mean fine and it is no more that a dust. I found the best results were using medium grade even in N. So I am tending towards the Hornby Spring Green but think it would benefit from blending in some other shades. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Madog Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Mike, I´d still go for the WS green blend, maybe with a little, say 20% of that burnt grass stuff mixed into it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin1985 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I would definitely vote for "D" - Woodland Scenics Green Blend. Even though those Swiss fields do look remarkably uniform in colour, the key to capturing the impression of realistic grass does appear to be capturing a naturalistic blend of colours. (I don't claim any expertise, but in terms of the layouts that I have found effective). I think Barry Norman, in Wild Swan's "Landscape Modelling" suggests giving whatever ground covering you use a dusting with an airbrush to give smoothly graduated variations in colour. Colour does seem to be something its better to try and capture the perception of, rather than directly match the reality - just look at all the threads over the "correct" shades of BR "Blood and Custard" etc! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted September 18, 2011 Author Share Posted September 18, 2011 Thanks for both your feedbacks, but I had tried Woodland Scenics and did not like the result. Since then I have used a blend of Hornby Spring Green and Martian Green with some Woodland Scenics Grass Blend for good measure (though not a lot). As before applied using my talcum powder puffer bottle onto a base coat of PVA and left to dry after carefully tamping down.. This time I did not brush all the surplus off (the puffer bottle gives a good even coverage in the first place), just those bits over the track and ballast. A spray with wet water and a coating of scenic cement. Much more to my liking. The blend is subtle and just breaks up the uniform colour. The applied grass is still drying out but I will try and post a photo later today time and weather permitting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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