What happened at tunnels?

[Benbow]

Hi

Can you tell me what happened to telegraph wires at tunnels? Been looking through my S&D books but most don't show this aspect. Did they go over the top, looks like they did at Chilcompton but that was only short. Coombe Down and Devonshire would have been a different proposition I guess.

Any help gratefully received.

Roger

[Fat Controller]

Depended very much on the tunnel, and also if the land-owner would allow the railway a way-leave to have the pole-run on top of the tunnel.

Saltwood tunnel (the nearest to me) had a pole-run across the top, I believe (certainly, there were the remains of poles there in the 1990s); Shakespeare Cliff had the telegraph cables along the inside. The best thing would be to find examples of tunnels around where you're modelling, but even then you might find differences.

[Dazzler Fan]

What about the instance of phone boxes at the side

of the track for crews to communicate with Signal

Boxes - and particularly with trouble when in

tunnels?

[DaveF]

What about the instance of phone boxes at the side

of the track for crews to communicate with Signal

Boxes - and particularly with trouble when in

tunnels?

 

When many tunnels were built telephones hadn't been invented, any wires were for the telegraph. In the very early days of tunnels even the electric telegraph didn't exist.

If there was a problem the fireman walked to the signal box, whether the train was in the open or in a tunnel.

It was very rare for phones to be provided at the trackside in the days when there were telegraph poles, a very few signals had them, but normally if a train was held at a signal the fireman had to walk to the signalbox to carry out Rule 55.

[Dazzler Fan]

O'k, but phones were around for most of the life of the line.

 

The triangle at Reading is often used to turn Intercity125's

I have been onboard when on the south end, the driver walking

the length of the train, uses the trackside phones to advise

the Signal Box.

[RJS1977]

As an aside, although I'm, only aware of one occasion of an HST turning at Reading (may well have been others) often wondered why they use Reading rather than West Ealing or doing a complete circuit of the Greenford loop.

 

Obviously the phones associated with colour light signals came in at the same time (or later) than the signals themselves and run down the same cable trunking. With the area that panel boxes cover these days, you can't really expect the driver to walk all the way to the nearest box!

[The Stationmaster]

As an aside, although I'm, only aware of one occasion of an HST turning at Reading (may well have been others) often wondered why they use Reading rather than West Ealing or doing a complete circuit of the Greenford loop.

 

Obviously the phones associated with colour light signals came in at the same time (or later) than the signals themselves and run down the same cable trunking. With the area that panel boxes cover these days, you can't really expect the driver to walk all the way to the nearest box!

I know of several instances of sets turning at Reading but that was over a period of at least 10 years - i.e. it was pretty unusual and invariably a result of a failure in traffic of something or other (I would say windscreen wiper defects was the most common from what I can recall). I know too of odd occasions when sets were turned 'round Greenford' but there was normally much less need for that because mechanical attention was available at Paddington or Old Oak (if time permitted). West Ealing/Hanwell triangle would not be used because of line occupation and length problem - it was much quicker to 'go round Greenford' as there was no need to stop and mess about reversing twice over.

 

As far as SPTs (signal post telephones) are concerned they invariably came with any running signal capable of displaying a stop aspect installed under the major multiple aspect signalling schemes from the late 1950s onwards and on most schemes that predated that major period of resignalling although they were less common on the Pre-war schemes.

 

As far as telephones in tunnels are concerned that would pose more dangers than it solves as it would most likely encorage traincrews not to bother to go to the tunnel mouth when protecting a disabled train. A couple of the tunnels on the LSW mainline west of Salisbury had (have?) telephones by the tunnel mouth at one end and these have been there for many years - I think pre-dating the singling according to what I was told back in the 1970s.

[TheSignalEngineer]

At Beechwood Tunnel between Tile Hill and Berkswell, the cable route was buried over the top of the tunnel. About 1967/68-ish the phone circuits were progressively failing, and we found that contractors laying a gas main across the fields had snagged a lead covered paper insulated telecomm cable with a JCB and damaged a joint, allowing the damp to get in and affect the circuits.

[Dazzler Fan]

HST's were also turned at Bristol where there

are both a triangle and a loop.

 

As well as wiper defects, there are also broken

windshields with kids heaving cement blocks off

road bridges!

 

[RJS1977]

HST's were also turned at Bristol where there

are both a triangle and a loop.

 

As well as wiper defects, there are also broken

windshields with kids heaving cement blocks off

road bridges!

 

OK I'd just assumed that the turning moves were to get the first class coaches back to the correct end in the event of a previous reversal (e.g. I can recall a Swansea - Padd train reversing at Bristol Parkway then being diverted via Bath, Westbury and Newbury to Reading, which left it the wrong way around). But being turned in service due to a defect at one end occurring during a journey makes sense.

[Captain Kernow]

I'm sure there are/were tunnels where the telegraph wires went through, carried on specially adapted brackets mounted on the tunnel wall, but I'm not certain re any of the S&D ones.

[Dazzler Fan]

For about 10 years I commuted the Swansea line - Br P'way/Padd

- and the sets were always 1st Class in the Padd'n direction.

Rarely was there ever a set with 1st class end leading out of

Padd'n. - handy on the 17:59 for making a fast exit from Br P'way

car park!

[Wheeltapper]

I'm sure there are/were tunnels where the telegraph wires went through, carried on specially adapted brackets mounted on the tunnel wall, but I'm not certain re any of the S&D ones.

 

In many respects the structural work for canals was very like railways and many of the canal tunnels had the telegraph wires in the roof of the tunnel supported on brackets on which the insulators were mounted. In most cases the brackets were mounted in the centre of the roof at the highest point to keep them out the way . The brackets would be spaced at regular intervals , probably the same spacing as poles outside of the tunnel .

 

Although its decades since the old style telegraph wires were used alongside canals there are many tunnels on the canal system in which the telegraph wire brackets are still in place . A typical example being Kings Norton on the Worcester & Birmingham Canal.

 

Tom Rolt , who lived on a canal boat before he got involved with saving the Talylyn Railway and was one of the founders of the Inland Waterways Association writes in one of his books about an occasion when the engine on his narrowboat CRESSY broke down and he had to get the boat out of the tunnel by standing on the boat roof and using the telegraph wire brackets as something to push against to keep the boat momentum movement going as there was no towpaths in that particular tunnel , although there were in others. Even so it took hours to get the boat out.

 

The canals have started to be used again for the routing of cables but this time is ones of the fibre optic variety which are buried in the towpath so its an on going saga as I dont know what they do when they get to a tunnel .

[Diesel Dayz]

On page 33 of the book - Somerset & Dorset Then and Now (Mac Hawkins) there is a picture of a telegraph pole at Coombe DownTunnel which has the phone lines going down to ground level.

 

 

Alan

[jamie92208]

Certainly on the Settle and Carlisle Blea Moor had wooden troughing for the cables. The poor S & T maintainers were between a rock and a hard place, either spend a lot of time fault finding in the gloomy depths of the tunnel or walk over the top which is not pleasant in winter.

 

Jamie

[TheSignalEngineer]

Railway telegraph routes were usually cabled through tunnels, or the poles carried on over the top in some country areas. The sooty deposits in tunnels were not conducive to good quality circuits using bare wires on insulators.

 

For cabling a terminal pole was placed at each end of the tunnel. This had cable cupboard at the bottom.

 

Beware if you are finescale modelling that J-bolts are used for insulator mounting on terminal poles rather than straight spindles in the through run.

[Wheeltapper]

Railway telegraph routes were usually cabled through tunnels, or the poles carried on over the top in some country areas. The sooty deposits in tunnels were not conducive to good quality circuits using bare wires on insulators.

 

For cabling a terminal pole was placed at each end of the tunnel. This had cable cupboard at the bottom.

 

Beware if you are finescale modelling that J-bolts are used for insulator mounting on terminal poles rather than straight spindles in the through run.

 

 

I wonder why the issue of soot and wires in railway tunnels was not a similar issue in canal tunnels especially when steam driven canal boats were common and in widespread use before diesel engines on boats were introduced .

 

The fact that these boats were mainly employed on the very fast express services of canal goods traffic operating between major cities and operated to a very demanding timetable meant most of the time they would be going flat out and therefore depositing large amounts of soot on the tunnel lining . It wouldnt have helped that the chimney of the boat would have been almost touching the canal tunnel roof.