P.C.M Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I have just found this thread, very Interesting, I have a few Trans-Pennine rakes that I run on my North Wales layout, and have always found them an interesting train, helped by the fact that some trains were booked for Peak haulage. Great pics Derek, if you have any more Trans-Pennine train pics that would be great. The BG in your last pic is a Scotrail BG which is great as I quite fancy doing one in that livery. It also seems that MK2D FOs were not that uncommon in the rakes as I have seen a few pics with Inter-City FOs in the train. Regarding the NEAs I think there were a few painted in the Trans-Pennine livery but only one had Trans-Pennine written on the side. My rakes are made up from Hornby MK2s which are tecnically wrong as they are the vac brake ones, I also have a few Lima MK2Cs that I converted from Bs about 15 years ago. I wasn't aware of the lower colour differences which is something I will have to sort out in time, the dark blue seems to vary between manufactures as well, my Hornby Lima and Bachmann are all different. Cheers Peter. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Could this be the elusive 92248 As above, that is ScotRail livery (upper dark grey and blue stripe inline with InterCity red stripe) I have now found a more comprehensive list of BG coaches based at HT (Heaton) in TransPennine livery 92044, 92058, 92089, 92137, 92204, 92248, 92317 I note that Farish produced a BG in Regional Railways livery (no logos) numbered 92058 I had one, but no longer have it (as it didn't suit) Again, I suspect this is what causes the confusion as this is one of the BG coaches which carried TransPennine livery and the majority did not carry logos As there was no logo carried it would have been easy enough to clean 92248 (the final BG to carry this livery) and then apply Regional Railways logos for publicity purposes Edited September 29, 2011 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) AFAIK, Trans-Pennine livery was only carried by non air-con Mk2 TSOs & FKs and BGs I have now checked my lists and that is correct Prior to this livery becoming standard HT had a mixed fleet of vacuum Mark 2 and air-braked Mark 2a/b/c coaches It was centralised upon an air-braked fleet and as a result the five BSO and four BFK had to be taken out of service, which increased the requirement of BG (which is why the two ScotRail livery ones were transferred) Due to the shortage of FK coaches (still with NSE) two Mark 2D FK coaches were temporarily used, hence why some air conditioned coaches appeared and again these had become spare from ScotRail (but by then had had the blue stripe painted over) If you look at the first photo you can just make out the handrail in the window of the FK These were 13569 and 13588 Edited September 29, 2011 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 AFAIK, Trans-Pennine livery was only carried by non air-con Mk2 TSOs & FKs and BGs. I have now checked my lists and that is correct See my post above, there was at least one, possibly two Trans Pennine livery BSOs. However, they don't appear in the Platform 5 books until 1990 so were late repaints. Both were air braked, the one for which there is photographic evidence is one of the ex Edinburgh/Glasgow early Mk2s which were converted to air operated disc brakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) See my post above, there was at least one, possibly two Trans Pennine livery BSOs. However, they don't appear in the Platform 5 books until 1990 so were late repaints. Both were air braked, the one for which there is photographic evidence is one of the ex Edinburgh/Glasgow early Mk2s which were converted to air operated disc brakes I had noted that, but it must have been for a very short period, between ScotRail disposing of the last of its coaches and the introduction of Class 158 units on TransPennine as by 1993 these coaches were withdrawn Sadly the official records don't make any variation between TransPennine and Regional Railways from 1992 onwards so I had to go back to the records from 1991 (at that point these BSO were still with ScotRail) Equally, from what I can work out none of the TransPennine allocated coaches seemed to have survived after 1993, except 92248 Presumably they were not maintained after 1992 in anticipation of the Class 158 unit replacements, hence why so many ScotRail coaches ended up being used What comes around goes around, the period between 1991 and 1993 was a bit of a mess ScotRail were supposed to send their Mark 3A coaches to InterCity, but some had to be borrowed (resulting in INTERCITY livery with blue stripes) The Mark 2D coaches were sent away, but again some had to be borrowed and these were replaced by Mark 2E coaches (again resulting in INTERCITY livery with blue stripes) The Mark 2 non-air coaches were transferred away and split between TransPennine (air braked) and NSE (vacuum brakes) The older vacuum braked Mark 2 coaches were withdrawn and replaced with coaches from NSE Edited September 29, 2011 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 From the dim and distant depths of my memory (I put together a Trans Pennine rake using re-liveried Hornby and Lima coaches in the early 90s) ISTR the BSOs were to be used on a South Trans Pennine service but events seem to have overtaken things and by that time the TP liveried coaches seemed to be used in almost any Provincial loco hauled service, especially summer extras, often with the branding removed. The location of 9412 in the photo is given as York by the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 The BG were considered as wasted by Provincial (as it was then) and had been searching for BSO to replace them They had been offered BFK but declined these as this would have lead to either too little (BFK only) or too much (BFK and FK) First Class The BG were suitable when there was BRUTE traffic and continued to be used simply as the guard and brake were still required There were plans for two services to remain loco hauled when Class 158 units were introduced, operating between York and Liverpool, but that never happened as the Class 158 units were late in introduction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 As above, that is ScotRail livery (upper dark grey and blue stripe inline with InterCity red stripe) I have now found a more comprehensive list of BG coaches based at HT (Heaton) in TransPennine livery 92044, 92058, 92089, 92137, 92204, 92248, 92317 I note that Farish produced a BG in Regional Railways livery (no logos) numbered 92058 I had one, but no longer have it (as it didn't suit) Again, I suspect this is what causes the confusion as this is one of the BG coaches which carried TransPennine livery and the majority did not carry logos As there was no logo carried it would have been easy enough to clean 92248 (the final BG to carry this livery) and then apply Regional Railways logos for publicity purposes No mention of 92092? As far as I know, this was the only BG to carry the Trans-Pennine branding ('British Railways Mark 1 Coaches' by Keith Parkin and also Lima did a model of it) Photo of 92092 Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 No mention of 92092? Well spotted, the listings from 1988 aren't that easy to read Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 92317 was another odd one out, the only one with Commonwealth rather than B4 bogies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 92317 was another odd one out, the only one with Commonwealth rather than B4 bogies Yes, I noticed that as well when looking at the coach codes and had to look it up As above, Provincial just utilising what it had been assigned Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 I built a model of 92317 from the brake ends of two Triang Mk1 BSKs for my old Trans Pennine rake, that was before the scale length Replica and Bachmann ones were available. I chose 92317 because I had a spare pair of Replica Commonwealths! I'll dig the rake out of the loft and take some photos over the weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Here are some photos of my Trans Pennine rake that I put together in the early 1990s. All are full or (Lima) partial repaints fitted with Southeastern Finecast flushglaze windows and Fox blue/white stripe transfer. First up is BG 92317, the one with Commonwealth bogies. It was built from the brake ends of two Traing BSKs spliced together in the days before scale length BGs were available ready to run. Next up is FK 13520, a Mk2c modified from a Lima Mk2b. This is TSO 5453, a Lima Mk2b. This one wasn't strictly a Trans pennine coach and wasn't branded as such. I believe it was intended to be the standard Provincial livery but in the event was the only one before the change to regional railways. Then there is Mk2c TSO 5520, also Lima. Finally Mk2 TSO 5192, one of those converted to air operated disc brakes for the Glasgow Edinburgh push pulls. This is Hornby. I had intended to do more, particularly some Mk2a TSOs but the amount of filing to remove the draw angle around the window openings to get the flush glaze to fit got me down in the end. There is also a part finished BSO in the loft. I may well have another go using the more modern Bachmann Mk2s in the future, I bought several TSOs when they were cheap. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted October 3, 2011 Author Share Posted October 3, 2011 Thank you for sharing Giz! Does anyone know what sort of Mk2 the FK is in this shot? (A B or C). Im not sure of the differences between them, although Mk2As have two toilets at one end. Would the Bachmann FK be suitable? My Bachmann FK has a centre door as per the photo. Took me by supprise as most of the FKs are the non centre door type as per the Lima model (like Giz's above) Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Thank you for sharing Giz! Does anyone know what sort of Mk2 the FK is in this shot? (A B or C). Im not sure of the differences between them, although Mk2As have two toilets at one end. Would the Bachmann FK be suitable? My Bachmann FK has a centre door as per the photo. Took me by supprise as most of the FKs are the non centre door type as per the Lima model (like Giz's above) Cheers Daryl It's a 2a so the Bachmann one is suitable. All Mk2 type FKs have toilets each end (only the 2 and 2a TSOs had two toilets at one end) and a door at each corner. The Mk2 and 2a also had an additional door offset from the centre on the corridor side only. The coach in the photo must be a Mk2a as there were no Mk2 FKs in TP livery. The TP FKs were all 2a or 2c. I modelled a 2c as the only model available in those days was the LIma 2b which could be converted just by altering the roof details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil R Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Daryl I’d say that’s a Mk2a FK. It has a middle door which makes it Mk2 or 2a and I don’t think any Mk 2 FKs were painted in trans-pennine livery. The Bachmann Mk 2a FK (39-34x) is very suitable. Mark 2 & 2a open stock had an additional centre door on both sides, the corridor stock had a centre door on the corridor side only. This doesn’t apply to stock with brake accommodation. Mark 2b & 2c only had doors at the ends and these were “wrap-round” i.e. the door was hinged on the end of the coach and “wrapped around” the corner of the carriage, rather than the Mk 2 & 2a which had narrower doors which were hinged on bodyside. Cheers Phil Giz - beat me to it! Edited October 3, 2011 by Phil R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Does anyone know what sort of Mk2 the FK is in this shot? (A B or C). Im not sure of the differences between them, although Mk2As have two toilets at one end. I can go further and confirm it is a Mark 2A FK Will be numbered 13445, 13451, 13453 or 13463 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted October 10, 2011 Author Share Posted October 10, 2011 Thank you for that mjkerr! Cheers Daryl Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I was looking through an old Platform 5 Coaching stock book from 1989 and I was surprised to see a couple of Mark 2D air conditioned TSO coaches listed as being in Provincial livery. They were 5520 and 5614. I wasn't aware of any air conditioned coaches being painted in Provincial/Trans-Pennine livery. Is this true or is it a misprint in the book? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) looked up these numbers and they were both mk2c TSOs, i.e. not a/c coaches 5520 was an early mk2c (with the large toilet window) and certainly got provincial livery at some point (can't see if there's any T-P branding) http://bestieboy.smugmug.com/Trains/Scrapped-Exported/20973716_99FRM5/1965869536_dSkz3QX#!i=1965869536&k=dSkz3QX EDIT: 5520 also mentioned here (blue/grey with T-P branding): http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/17517-Bachmann-mark-2-coaches/&do=findComment&comment=166672 Edited January 5, 2015 by keefer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Bit late to the party, but I've come across this photo which also confirms that the bottom colour is Executive light grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/neil_harvey_railway_photos/5419107290/ Thanks to the contributor of the photo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daryl43068 Posted March 2, 2015 Author Share Posted March 2, 2015 Thank you to all that have helped me through the project, can't believe I forgot to post photos of the finished result! 47475 Mk2a FK 13445 Mk1 NEA 92092 Shed line-up The rake The 47 and FK were complete re-sprays, with the rest of the rake having the lower body panel re-sprayed Executive Light Grey (the NEA was a standard Bachmann NEA and the TSO the Model Rail Regional Railway Limited Edition TSOs). I finished them off just as Model Rail announced their Trans-Pennine specials! Cheers Daryl 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Did any Mk2Bs or Mk2Cs make it into Regional Railways livery? (I mean Regional Railways rather than Transpenine.) Edited March 31, 2015 by sub39h Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giz Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Did any Mk2Bs or Mk2Cs make it into Regional Railways livery? (I mean Regional Railways rather than Transpenine.) There were some 2b and 2c TSOs, for example 5505 (2c). Edit: checking my 1993 Platform 5 book they were 2b - 5463,5491 2c - 5505,5554,5614 Edited March 31, 2015 by giz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 Were any of the blue and grey coaches that worked these services ever branded with the Trans-pennine lettering, presumably in white? Think I've only ever seen them lettered with Intercity or latterly a few with scotrail as they were transferred south when sprinters ousted them north of the border Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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