A couple of questions re E116 GWR B Sets

[The Fatadder]

As I am getting closer to starting building my Ks E116 B set I have a couple more questions.

(I realise that no doubt this is covered in the Russel book, however unfortunately with a wedding to save for that has costs spiralling upwards I cant really justify spending on models at the moment, let alone books.)

 

Anyway, the first question is the roof,

I havent got any instructions for the k's kit, thats not a problem for the most part, the 5 piece body is easy enough to work out what goes where, and the chassis was binned for not being up to scratch. the one area I do have an issue with is the roof detail.

The only photo I have found so far is of Bristol Division 2 in one of the cheddar books, this gives a good view of the outer end detail (including some steps that need adding, and roof pipework) but I have no idea as to where the roof vents should go.

 

My other question is regarding the doors, I cant quite work out much detail from the photo I have available. Is there any form of rain strip? It almost looks like the raised lines on the kit go the whole hight of the side, which doesn't sit too well with me as I'd expect to see materiel above the door.

 

Thanks for the help, (now back to revision...)

[buffalo]

From the photos in Russell's appendix, the roof has transverse beading strips which are aligned over the compartment divisions (bearing in mind that the first class compartment is wider and at the non-brake end). Each compartment has a single ventilator. These appear to be located in line with the centre of the window to the non-brake side of the door. Its not clear in the photos what ventilators the guard's and van area might have. The ventilators are in a line, to the left of the roof centre line when looking from the brake end towards the 1st class end. From other contemporary coaches, I would expect the line of ventilators to be about 1'2" off-centre.

 

There are no rain strips on the roof, but the cantrail is quite substantial. I'm not sure what you mean by "..the raised lines on the kit go the whole hight of the side...".

 

I hadn't actually realised these were used as B sets (though it is confirmed by Harris who also gives the running number pairs), do you know if they were close-coupled pairs or if they had normal buffers at the inner end? scrub that, Russell says they were close-coupled.

 

Nick

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for the data

The raised lines I mentioned are k's attempt at modelling the door gaps

 

[Il Grifone]

I'll check with mine. They've been under construction for a very long time now. Let's just say they were the only B Set available when I bought them!

 

I've never been able to find much information as to the coupling between the coaches (one excuse), but IIRC it was a pin and link affair rather akin to early American couplings. You get a spare set of K's turned buffers with the pair, though mine came with nasty white metal substitutes. Again IIRC they should be 1' 10" square shank elliptical (possibly replaced with circular in the thirties) and started life in the chocolate and cream livery with the false panelling, which mine have been decorated with, though it now needs restoration as the sides were painted a long time ago.

 

The bogies are, correctly, the fish belly pattern, though K's bogies are rather generous width wise and need much filing especially if you wish to fit EM or P4 wheels.

 

The early K's rolling stock kits never had any instructions or data supplied. You were expected to know what to do and livery details - much harder then, as most of the kits pre-dated even Russell's worthy tomes. (I still haven't found anything about the Highland Railway twin wagons for example - beyond an article on wagon kits in M.R.N.)

 

Be careful comparing B-sets as they were all different. There were these, then a similar bow end design followed by the Airfix coaches, which came in two versions with different bogies (7' and 9' wheelbase). ( Luckily you can use the bogies from your SIPHON G and H for these, as they are the correct pattern for the (9' variety and incorrect for the SIPHONs.) Yet another variety followed, some of which were apparently used as individual coaches according to Harris.

[buffalo]

...I've never been able to find much information as to the coupling between the coaches (one excuse), but IIRC it was a pin and link affair rather akin to early American couplings...

Russell has a photo of the E129 coupling and Tim Venton has some coupling details on his website. As the E129 came only a couple of years after E116, I would have thought a similar coupling would have been used.

 

Nick

[The Fatadder]

Again IIRC they should be 1' 10" square shank elliptical (possibly replaced with circular in the thirties)

 

Thanks for the heads up there, thats a detail that I was wondering about given the square shank being used on other b sets. Another set of the Model Railway Developments buffers to order!

 

The bogies are, correctly, the fish belly pattern, though K's bogies are rather generous width wise and need much filing especially if you wish to fit EM or P4 wheels.

I hadnt really paid much attention to the castings, sounds like the best approach is going to be replacing with a better casting.....

 

Livery wise, other than Chocolate and Cream with Bristol Division no 2, Im not 100% certain what livery variation is going to be required. Though that is research for another day, Its my intention to hold off on painting until I have a lot more coaches to do in one batch (hopefully next summer once I get back from Toulouse).

 

Be careful comparing B-sets as they were all different. There were these, then a similar bow end design followed by the Airfix coaches, which came in two versions with different bogies (7' and 9' wheelbase). ( Luckily you can use the bogies from your SIPHON G and H for these, as they are the correct pattern for the (9' variety and incorrect for the SIPHONs.) Yet another variety followed, some of which were apparently used as individual coaches according to Harris.

The differences in B-sets is what is making them so appealing to me, having read through the details on Tim V's website it didnt take long for me to decide that I was going to model plenty of different types. So far I have the Airfix doners for an E140 and an E145, and will also be doing the two comet kits (the intention is to take at least one of them with me to build while I am in France!)

Coupling wise for the E116 (and the comet E129 when I get round to it) I am planning to use a pair of modified Kaydees mounted in the buffer beams. Not sure how I will do the bar coupling on the 140s etc yet......

[The Fatadder]

As a bit of an aside (given that painting and lettering will not be taking place for a long time.) I am trying to match up the numbers of the 7 sets built to their Bristol Division numbers.

I am assuming that Bristol Division 2 will be the second pair of numbers in the series 7171/2. (This was chosen as there is a photo of the set set at Cheddar Station in 1948 in the Steaming Through Cheddar Book),

 

Would an older type of local coach such as this have gained the new GW logos by nationalisation, or would it still have shirt buttons? All I can make out from my source photo in the book is the width of the cream and chocolate bands.... I deffinitely need to learn a bit more on GW livery identification, though certainly on the b-sets at least I can work out what diagrams are being used in photos now which is a huge help!

[Neal Ball]

As a bit of an aside (given that painting and lettering will not be taking place for a long time.) I am trying to match up the numbers of the 7 sets built to their Bristol Division numbers.

I am assuming that Bristol Division 2 will be the second pair of numbers in the series 7171/2. (This was chosen as there is a photo of the set set at Cheddar Station in 1948 in the Steaming Through Cheddar Book),

 

Would an older type of local coach such as this have gained the new GW logos by nationalisation, or would it still have shirt buttons? All I can make out from my source photo in the book is the width of the cream and chocolate bands.... I deffinitely need to learn a bit more on GW livery identification, though certainly on the b-sets at least I can work out what diagrams are being used in photos now which is a huge help!

 

Can't help with the numbering I am afraid. But as far as livery thoughts go, the situation pre- nationalisation would have been an area where the companies would have paid particular attention. With probably all locos and carriage changed as a matter of course when ever they were close to any examination that took them to Swindon, or any of the outposts. Probably the only exception would be goods stock. So the chances of any carriage getting to 1948 with the Shirtbutton logo would be slim!

 

Good luck with your project.

[The Fatadder]

That's good to hear (as I much prefer the late coach livery!) will paint everything in that unless I have particular evidence that a particular coach had not received it!

[br2975]

Rich

.

I have GWJ for Late Summer 1992 which includes a three page article on B-Sets in Cornwall.

.

Whilst not quite what you're looking for, there are set details, diagram differences etc

.

If you'd like a scan, drop me a PM

 

Brian R

[Mallard60022]

Pendon boys are pretty hot on livery detail. Excuse for a visit?

P @ 36E

[chrisf]

Rich, Bristol 2 was 7171+7172 according to my [incomplete] list garnered from many sources. I sometimes wonder what moves a manufacturer to select a particular prototype: there were but seven sets built to E116 and only five to E129.

 

Chris

[The Fatadder]

Rich, Bristol 2 was 7171+7172 according to my [incomplete] list garnered from many sources. I sometimes wonder what moves a manufacturer to select a particular prototype: there were but seven sets built to E116 and only five to E129.

 

Chris

 

 

Thanks for the confirmation, nice to know that I will be getting it right.

For once I am glad about K's and Comet both choosing such obscure prototypes, though I suppose a decent etched kit of the E140/145 would make getting the door handles correct a hell of a lot easier. (After all the time preparing the E116 sides, I am once again thinking about doing the handles on the Airfix 140 and 145 accuratly (on one side at least.) getting very close to putting drill to bodyshell.....

[The Fatadder]

Pendon boys are pretty hot on livery detail. Excuse for a visit?

P @ 36E

I've never actually been before so I think a visit will have to be arranged in the future. Though as a source of livery research unfortunately all being 1930s its a bit too early for my period.

[Mallard60022]

I've never actually been before so I think a visit will have to be arranged in the future. Though as a source of livery research unfortunately all being 1930s its a bit too early for my period.

 

Ah, sorry! However, they have lots of reference material and I'm sure if you contacted them beforehand you could arrange to have someone on hand to show you stuff.

Having said this Chris F just seems to know so much about GWR it's hardly worth the journey (or is it?)

P

[Il Grifone]

Re livery. The first sets were built during the fake panelling era and would have received that. After 1928 there was the plain two colour livery, but still with crests, the 'shirt button' not appearing until 1934 when most of the B-Sets had already been built. I believe the paintwork was expected to last about ten years ( I read this somewhere, but have not been able to find it again!) It would have varied a bit lasting better in rural areas rather than industrial smog, but following this i feel it is unlikely that the later sets would have actually carring the 'shirt'button' at least until the late thirties and the war would have delayed repaints on secondary stock still further. I feel it likely that the earlier sets would have gone into plain livery in the early thirties and could have missed the 'shirt buttons' as well. I hasten to add this is conjecture on my bpart and would welcome proof one way or the other.

 

As an aside, the same would seem to apply to the 1912 crimson livery. This was certainly applied to coaches and some 'brown' vehicles. A note in instructions to my fruit van kit states these vehicles reverted to brown in 1915. This would seem reasonable seeing wartime conditions (brown, khaki and even black being used), but surely it would have been reinstated after the war. Fish vehicles* and horse boxes certainly appeared in crimson and I see no reason why SIPHONs and others should have been treated differently. There is a photo of a HYDRA in the GW Wagons books which appears to be crimson - the wheels appear to be red oxide rather than black. It is, of course, difficult to tell from a monochrome picture what colour an item is, especially in this case where the tone is very similar. Again I would welcome evidence.

 

There is a published picture of an open fish wagon with carriage numbers in white. In my opinion this vehicle is still grey and has merely been renumbered. This would explain the white. Again wartime would be a good reason for this expedient.

 

Sorry to go off topic! but back to B-Sets, the couplings of E116 were different from the later sets I believe, though semi-permanently coupled, like the others. I would have thought that the non-permanence of the coupling would have led to sets being mixed up. Logic would suggest consecutive numbers for pairs of coaches. (I know logic is often missing when it comes to vehicle numbers!)

[chrisf]

 

Ah, sorry! However, they have lots of reference material and I'm sure if you contacted them beforehand you could arrange to have someone on hand to show you stuff.

Having said this Chris F just seems to know so much about GWR it's hardly worth the journey (or is it?)

P

 

Mallard, you are too kind. I just know where to find some things and I'm old enough to remember others! I learn a lot from being in the GWR e-list [Yahoo group], the GW Study Group, the RCTS, the HMRS and the Welsh Railways Research Circle. There is also quite an amazing resource called RMweb!

 

Rich, do go to Pendon when you can. It's about three miles from Didcot where there is also an extensive library. IIRC Laurence Waters is custodian of the GW Trust photographic collection.

 

Chris