Help me, please.......(0 or 00?)

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

I've been lurking for a while and I thought it about time that I broke cover and introduced myself. Like many I suppose, I had Hornby trains as a kid and as I approach 50, I'm getting the urge to get back into it now that I have a little more time.

 

I have a problem though, I cannot for the life of me make up my mind between 0 gauge and 00. I'm stuck in a perpetual loop that goes something like this;

 

I like the idea of 0 gauge, the larger models, the heft of metal, and also if I'm honest, the removal of the need to have a large impressively landscaped layout - just not possible. But then I think, what's the point of having a collection of, say, 5 locos and a few wagons if you've got nowhere to run them and realistically, never will have ? The cost is an issue too at £500+ a pop and I slowly start to flip over into 00 and all it's advantages over 0, space requirements, cost, availability of stock, complexity of layouts possible, but then after a few days I start to wonder whether I really have the motivation to build a large layout with all that it entails, can put up with all that plastic etc, in which case, why don't I stick with 0 ?

 

And so the whole process starts again.

 

I may shoot myself in the head soon, but before I do, any input from folks on here would be appreciated ?

 

Kind regards,

 

Chris.

[Steve Sykes]

I guess the question to ask is what kind of railway you want to model. If you like smaller locos and vehicles then perhaps the high level of detail and the heft of the stock would point you towards 0; on the other hand if you're more interested in running longer trains in a bigger scene then the smaller scales are the better option. Your post suggests that you may not have space for an 0 gauge layout, but is there a local club or Gauge 0 Guild group nearby which might give you somewhere to run stock if you choose that scale?

[brossard]

I second the notion of joining a club. It's a good way to learn your craft from the ground up and most modellers are only too happy to guide people new to the hobby. It is a bit daunting at first - there is so much to learn. I would reframe the question as to whether one models in 7mm or 4mm scale. For 4mm there is 00, EM and P4. For 7mm there are also, I think, three levels of fidelity.

 

John

[Dave777]

...but then after a few days I start to wonder whether I really have the motivation to build a large layout with all that it entails...

 

I don't, which is why I build a series of smaller ones. It allows me to cover a variety of interests and move onto a new layout before interest wanes.

 

 

What others said is right - decide what you want to model, then decide what scale would best serve that interest

[edcayton]

As others have said, join a club(s) and see what's going on. Go to shows, although 0 gauge layouts will be in a minority at most. The question I think you need to ask is "do I want to build or buy"?. There is a vast range of superb rtr in 00 at reasonable prices and I suspect that many more than me have far too much stock for their layout.

 

I have heard it said that if you don't want to spend a lot then go for 0 because you won't have so much room for a complex layout. FWIW if I was starting again I'd go for 0, indeed I picked up a couple of 0 gauge wagon kits at a bargain price recently.

 

Whichever way you go there will be times when you'll wish you'd gone the other! Such is life !!

 

Good luck

 

Ed

[cromptonnut]

Have you considered a 'modular' approach?

 

Two simple fiddle yards of the right length for a basic train (loco plus 2 coaches or 4 wagons) built to a standard, then you can build an 8ft "module" that can go between, and as long as you have a template for the track position at the edges, bolt holes and wiring standards, then you can build as many modules as you want, so you have a variety of different layouts you can run - a simple single track with a couple of sidings as one "project", where you can go to town on scenic detail, or a station "project", or something with a drop to have a bridge over a river, etc. You can then have fiddle plus project plus fiddle indoors at any time, just changing the middle part as you feel, or if you're building to the same standard all through then theoretically in the summer you can move it all into the garden on a nice day and join the different modules together for a longer layout and run through.

 

There's a small "O gauge modular standard" group here on RMWEB that you might find useful: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/136-o-gauge-modular-group/

 

I'm in a similar problem to you, having picked up a 7mm Class 122 DMU at a bargain price which I'm repainting at present, but have no room for the sort of layout I'd like (Clapham Junction in 8ft x 4ft is even less likely in O gauge...) so it's currently sat on a length of flexi awaiting inspiration (I'm fully expecting the O gauge layout to be little more than a scenic plank as I don't have the room or cash to get everything I'd really like. I also have bucketloads of OO stock, some DCC sound fitted, but I'm also restricted at present with how much room I can have, and am about 4ft short of what I'd really like to have so I'm waiting for a house move next year hopefully where somewhere to put the layout will be foremost in my mind, whether it's a loft or garage. In the meantime I'm looking at an 8ft x 2ft (ish) N gauge project to tide me over, plus fiddling about detailing the O gauge DMU until I can convince myself that simply running it up and down a scenic plank will satisfy me. As it will be DCC run, I might possibly look at automating the running up and down via electronics and laptop (as I already have a lot of the bits including the computer interface) so with the sound it might be entertaining enough in itself without needing any 'human intervention'.

 

As already said, if you're anything like me you'll have a dozen project ideas buzzing round in your head at any given time and whichever one you settle on you'll get to a point where you wish you'd picked one of the others... it's one of the advantages (or disadvantages, if you want to look at it that way) of having so many options available to us these days that you can actually get a book of track plans with a shopping list, buy ready to plant buildings and so much "out of the box" stuff that you don't actually need to do any 'modelling' as such, to get something you want ... but it's the difference between "train set" and "model railway" where the skill comes in and we can put our own mark on things, even if it's only a bit of weathering on standard stock items.

[Prodigy]

If you have little room go OO or even N (small things....)

[Kenton]

I always dislike the argument that modelling with O gauge in 7mm is more expensive than in OO gauge in 4mm.

 

I model in all three scales and 4 (used to be 5) gauges. I don't have loads of space and I'm not quite a millionaire!

 

Now if your desire is for a large room sized layout then want the equivalent modelled territory in the larger scale then, yes, it will cost more. But most of the 7mm modellers utilise the same space as their 4mm counterparts. We tend to fit the layout in the same space constraint and therefore have less stock, and less scenery. But the level of detail is the same. That is to say we go down to the same level of resolution, something added in 7mm may be the same actual size in 4mm but due to the scale might just not be seen or achievable in 4mm. The same applies going down to 2mm.

 

So that should put cost out of the equation. But not quite, and this is because the we are not quite comparing like-to-like. The smaller scales are very well supported by the RTR choice, both inn what is available and in the "cheap" imports. In O it is very much a DIY hobby with build it yourself or commissioning being the norm, all the way from track to painted loco and stock.

 

So it really comes down to what satisfies you operationally. If you want to model Clapham Junction then you need to forget O. It isn't going to fit in a room (big garden maybe) and obtaining a representative stock is going to cost you mega bucks, In fact you will be unable to do it in OO and TBH in N. A small BLT is certainly doable in about 9ft in 7mm, with only 1 or 2 locos and a few wagons/coaches. In 4mm that same space could hold a respectable MPD with lots happening.

 

You have to first consider what you can model and what you want from the layout.

 

But take your time - getting it wrong will be an expensive mistake.

 

Oh and don't forget Narrow Gauge as an option.

[Jellicoe]

Oh, come on, Ghost! You already know what you want to go for; you're just looking for public approbation. Be your own man and go for the 0-gauge that you really want.

 

Good luck! :lol:

[Wolfy]

I do sympathise! I model OO more or less by default (I already had some bits from my childhood) but whenever I see someone on here making things in O I start wavering. I barely have room for a OO layout but those MMP kits are so tempting!

[Guest jim s-w]

Think of it like this

 

Do you want to model a railway or trains?

 

Then

 

Do you want to model trains or stock?

 

Before you make a descision look at model groups in your area. You might find an o gauge group nearby meaning you do have somewhere to run your stuff.

 

Hth

 

Jim

[Guest jim s-w]

I always dislike the argument that modelling with O gauge in 7mm is more expensive than in OO gauge in 4mm.

 

I model in all three scales and 4 (used to be 5) gauges. I don't have loads of space and I'm not quite a millionaire!

 

Now if your desire is for a large room sized layout then want the equivalent modelled territory in the larger scale then, yes, it will cost more. But most of the 7mm modellers utilise the same space as their 4mm counterparts. We tend to fit the layout in the same space constraint and therefore have less stock, and less scenery. But the level of detail is the same. That is to say we go down to the same level of resolution, something added in 7mm may be the same actual size in 4mm but due to the scale might just not be seen or achievable in 4mm. The same applies going down to 2mm.

 

 

 

That's not quite true though. Looking at the Heljan site the RRP of an O gauge class 47 is nearly 10 times that of a OO one and yet the footprint of the O gauge one is less than 4 times the area of the OO one. Clearly O is massively more expensive than OO for the same area.

 

Also factor in that a lot of available O gauge is (I am not going to mince my words) utter crap and I firmly believe that O gauge modellers are being royally ripped off.

 

Heljans mk1 coaches look nothing like a real one for example. They wouldn't have got away with them in 4mm scale in a million years.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

 

[cromptonnut]

I guess a lot of it is "quantity" when it comes to OO, as the market is much bigger than the O gauge market.

 

I agree that a lot of O gauge stuff is hugely expensive but I suppose if the market is less they have to put the prices up to cover their investment and make a profit. I'm sure that 10x the material doesn't go into making a 4x bigger item although I guess you can understand things like a more powerful motor is required in an equivalent loco.

 

Don't forget track too - £45 for a Peco point...

[Poggy1165]

Both sizes have their advantages, but I believe it ultimately costs about the same to fill a given area. One plus of O Gauge is that the weight and mass of the vehicles make them run more reliably - here I am comparing to straight 00, not P4 done well with springing/compensation. Another is that O FS is roughly equal to EM, so a better approximation to the scale of the gauge.

 

It's amazing how small a working O gauge layouts can be, but it does depend on what you want. O in a small space is perhaps a coaling stage scene or a very small goods yard, or a tiny light railway terminus. Do you want a dozen locos, or would you be happy with two or three really well detailed ones?

 

I can only say that having worked in 'O' I would never dream of going back to 'OO' though sometimes I regret not persevering with P4. But my main interest now is building wagons, and this is a much more satisfactory business in the larger scale. Your priorities may differ.

[Kenton]

That's not quite true though.  Looking at the Heljan site the RRP of an O gauge class 47 is nearly 10 times that of a OO one and yet the footprint of the O gauge one is less than 4 times the area of the OO one.  Clearly O is massively more expensive than OO for the same area.

Also factor in that a lot of available O gauge is (I am not going to mince my words) utter crap and I firmly believe that O gauge modellers are being royally ripped off.

Heljans mk1 coaches look nothing like a real one for example.  They wouldn't have got away with them in 4mm scale in a million years.

Cheers

Jim

But there was some qualification in my post that RTR was not generally available for O and I would certainly agree the quality has not made the leaps and bounds that has been made with 4mm and 2mm. But this is no surprise. The market is much smaller and the the choice considerably less. With virtually no competition, unlike 4mm where Bachmann and Hornby slog it out in the market and Hejan sweeping up what's left. I still think the number of locos and stock is no a direct comparison on layouts of different scale. Sure you could manage perfectly well with one loco (+1 spare) in 7mm but would you then limit yourself to 2-4 in 4mm and 8 in 2mm? I doubt it the temptation to just go out and purchase more of what is readily available would be too much.

[Kenton]

So for a basic Scottish highland BR Blue era BLT the initial purchase 7mm price (from a discounting retailer) is far higher. Most 7mm modellers I know will normally have at least two locomotives, especially if they do any exhibitions. Clearly someone in the smaller scales for the same budget will get more 'stuff' for their buck. Therefore starting to build a small 1970's BLT with a similar 'fleet' and track layout across the scales with a clean sheet, O gauge is far more expensive,

But that is comparing like with like. Something I clearly indicated would not be done. The one factor for most of us that is finite is space. Having decided on the space it then comes down to the type of layout in that space. There is much more opportunity for more track in 2mm than 7mm given the same space and there is more opportunity for design of layout. Only then you can see that the stock required to operate is quite different and not in multiples of the gauge. So the requirement of a similar fleet simply does not exist.

 

But for a modeller dependent on RTR, I think O is out of the window. Just about everything has to be kit or even scratch built. Probably one of the most compelling reasons to go 4mm if RTR is the limit of your desires.

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

Thanks Chaps,

 

Many usefull points made. I spent a lot of yesterday evening looking at the pdf's of Connossieur's extremely tempting 7mm wagons and then most of this morning trawling ebay for second hand 4mm RTR LNER locos (of which there were plenty). £50 for a 7mm wagon isn't too bad, but £480 + motor + wheels for an unbuilt loco (DJH) is a bit much, especially when one could conceivably have 15 4mm RTR 2nd hand locos for that outlay (assuming one became competent at repair and refurbishment - fun in itself).

 

As I have almost zero space and am limited to what I could carry under my arm (6ft by 2ft ?) and that situation isn't going to change for the forseeable future (no, I'm not in prison), I'm looking at this as a 'stock building' exercise against the day when I can do it properly. I have in mind to do my learning on a 6ft piece of plywood which is going to be backwards and forwards in either gauge.

 

I'm leaning towards 4mm at this moment in time, chiefly because I'm a little bit intimidated by the percieved complexities of putting a 7mm kit together. There must be a reason why people are asking £2K for a completed kit that costs £500, right ?

 

Fortunately, I have a long shopping list of things like soldering irons, airbrushes etc, before I push any buttons so please keep it coming.

 

Another thought occurs - from what I have seen this morning, there is a reasonably vibrant market for used 00, so if one did make a mistake and wanted to change horses, it should be quite easy to move it all on and recoup a lot of the outlay ?

[edcayton]

You could, of course, buy an 0 gauge loco kit for £500, make a good job of it and sell it for £2000! It seems to me that 0 gauge stuff holds its value better.

 

Ed

[brossard]

Not all 00 loco models are made equal. The very latest stuff from the big 4 are generally very good if not excellent. You still need to beware that Bachmann have been known to release split chassis locos (which are adequate but have their issues, esp. when it comes to DCC conversion). B'mann are working thorugh their range to update locos with their (very good indeed) new standard chassis.

 

If going on eBay, be very leery of models that were made before 1990. Their level of detail is typically much lower than today's models (and some see that as an advantage). The British* pancake or ringfield motor found in many locos of that era is, IMHO, not very good (again, some will disagree). From my reading (and I haven't got any of these), the Hornby Railroad range uses upperworks tooling (lots of moulded detail) from their earlier models mated with quite good chassis for a lower price than the premium version.

 

John

 

*I say British here because I was picked up on another thread for generalizing about pancake motors. I am informed that European pancake motors are a completely different animal.

[Guest jim s-w]

 

I'm leaning towards 4mm at this moment in time, chiefly because I'm a little bit intimidated by the percieved complexities of putting a 7mm kit together. There must be a reason why people are asking £2K for a completed kit that costs £500, right ?

 

Depends on what it is but from some of the top builders of 4mm scale large steam locos you could pay twice that.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Boris]

Putting 7mm kits together is easier I find as the parts are bigger than 4mm. If you want to go for O gauge, do it, I did and enjoy every minute of it. Don't be put off looking at kits and saying "I could never do that" that's what I said, but ~#@!"! me it's exactly what I am doing. Start small in 7mm, the tower models 0-4-0 steam loco starter kit represents a good investment at £200, and you can always sell it on once you have built it and put the money to something else.

[Guest dilbert]

I always dislike the argument that modelling with O gauge in 7mm is more expensive than in OO gauge in 4mm.

 

So do I ... if you set (and respect) a monthly budget of whatever amount you wish to pay, then the cost of modelling regardless of the scale doesn't change as it remains a constant.

 

Every modeller has to deal with compromises and constraints, it's basically a question of what do you want to model, and which scale is best suited for this.

 

Running a realistic full scale express with sixteen coaches on in 4mm scale inside your house (for permanent access) won't be necessarily any more expensive than playing with a 7mm loco pulling one or two coaches in your garden - the compromise is completely different.

 

Whilst pricing of individual models appears more expensive in 7mm (lack of choice in the RTR area - but heaps of kits and, for example, not bothered with DCC sound) compared to 4mm OO RTR and ,if you intend going down the EM/P4 route, then other factors kick in (wheel sets, track, and then this will be influenced by whether you are of steam or diesel inclination or mixed etc...

 

The major difference that 7mm has over 4mm is that you have to think very hard and fast about what you want - flights of fancy are much less easier to finance in 7mm. Thereagain, you avoid building up a potentially large inventory in 7mm.

 

You pays your money and makes your choice - what you get will only be matched by what your expectations realistically are... dilbert

[Boris]

I too am not convinced by the "cost" argument for 7mm over 4mm, especially having seen the prices of some of the latest ready to run DCC sound and light locos from Bachmann. The other thing about O gauge is that broadly speaking you make most of your stock yourself (the RTR market is a bit pricey and quite variable in quality), which leads to the most amazing sense of achievement when you run your locos and stock.

[Guest dilbert]

I can only say that having worked in 'O' I would never dream of going back to 'OO' though sometimes I regret not persevering with P4. But my main interest now is building wagons, and this is a much more satisfactory business in the larger scale.

 

On top of that, I find the variety of freight stock a lot more interesting on any type of layout rather than the ubiquitous quest for different classes (and ultimately, quantities) of locos, regardless of operating company, era(s) of operation(s) etc... dilbert

[Guest jim s-w]

Sorry dilbert but I can't agree with that at all.

 

Even £50 is a lot of money for some and we really have to justify it. If what you want is out of you budget it really doesn't matter by how much

 

Cheers

 

Jim