MR, LMS, BR cab interior colours

[buffalo]

With the release of the new Bachmann 3F model I'm reminded of something that puzzled me when their 7F was released. Both Bachmann models have cab sides, front and roof painted in a creamy beige colour. The regulator and reverser are both picked out in red, the firebox door and its levers are in a brassy/coppery colour, and the main pipes are in copper (see, for example, the photos in this post and this one).

 

Now, this all helps to highlight the fine level of detail on these models, but is it in any way prototypical? I've rummaged through numerous photos of these and other contemporary engines in S&DJR, MR, LMS and BR days and cannot find a single example that suggests cab interiors were anything but black. Were regulators and reversers red? They all look like polished steel in contemporary photos. Similarly, the main pipework usually looks dull and the firebox door and levers were certainly not brass or copper.

 

Whilst some of these features do appear on preservation era engines, the nearest I can find to this multi-colour decoration is in works photographic grey examples where even the backhead is painted in a pale colour to contrast with the darker pipework.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Nick

[brossard]

Having the prototype cab painted in a light colour makes sense to me. It would improve visibility for the crew. B&W photos I have seen suggest that this is so. What the actual colour is I couldn't say, but cream/beige seems reasonable. The backhead is black as are the seats (toolboxes?).

 

I might speculate that, in the case of the 7F, the cab colour of the preserved example(s) was used.

 

I pulled this from Wikipedia, scroll down:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotive

 

However, the picture is probably of a preserved loco.

 

Here's another:

 

http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/486431/locomotive-firebox/ This looks to be a western loco.

 

Maybe we'll get more pictures of cabs.

 

In my opinion, the colour scheme done by Bachmann is plausible - better than what we used to get. It should be weathered anyway

 

John

[LMS2968]

Apart from the firehole door and handle, it's otherwise correct for an engine FRESH OFF WORKS! Cab roofs were cream, upperpanels were in a wood grain finish while lower panels were black. Firehole detail was black. It didn't take long for everything to become black in service, though.

[coachmann]

Cab interiors were painted creamy colour above the waist but it was hard to tell this after a while. This was due to smoke billowing out of fireholes when lighting up or simmering on shed. I must admit the only locos that did strike me as having cream cab interiors were the L&YR 'A' Class 0-6-0's. I spent much of my time on them.

 

An inspector showed me the well bulled up cab on a Stanier 2-6-4T regularly rostered to Manchester Victoria-Blackpool services and he told me this was routine. It was unusual and mostly one came across brass fittings and copper pipes that were unpainted but had tarnished down to brownish-black. Only the brass gauge glasses were polished as might be expected. As for red regulator handles and reversing screws, I suspect this was a GWR/Western Region tradition but it looks neat! I have to be honest here and say am guilty of doing this on many a model loco, GW or not...!

[buffalo]

Thanks Larry and LMS2968. Interesting to know that cabs were actually painted like this, but that it didn't last long. I've certainly seen photos of BR standard classes, Bulleid pacifics, etc. like this and, whilst most are preservation era, I'm sure some of those photos must have been from BR days. Thinking about your mention of L&Y engines, Larry, I believe I've also seen some older photos showing this pale interior colour. My problem is really that there are many photos of Midland/LMS cabs on these goods engines and tanks that have clearly been cleaned up for photography, even if they are not in ex-works condition, where the sides and front are definitely black.

 

So, when did the practice start? When did it become widespread? Was it always done or was it practice of certain works only? Did it persist in BR days even on old engines?

 

As to the red bits, I agree that it probably stems from a GWR/WR tradition and that it looks neat, but did the LMS or BR ever do this? Come to think of it, I'm not sure when the practice started on the GWR as there are many photos from pre-grouping days which appear to show these parts in polished steel.

 

Nick

[coachmann]

It is on record that the LNWR painted its cab interiors "dullish red (1890 reference), "light brown" (1896 reference), while some sounces gave red brown, dirty putty and grained oak. What is certain is that the majority of cabs from Webbs time onwards were 'indian red' (red oxide of iron mixed with ovory black). A grained oak finish was introduced probably only in late 1921 when lining out was resumed but even so indian red continued to be applied on most locos. (Ref LNWR Liveries HMRS).

 

The LMS and MR cab interior details : Two coats of white and then upper parts of sides and front two coats of buff undercoat and one of graining colour, the whole then being grained. The bottom portion was given two coats of drop black then the whole interior given two coats of exterior varnish.

[buffalo]

Many thanks, Larry. So, I think the plan is to replace the red with polished steel and deal with the bizarre firebox door/lever, then cover with suitably grubby washes until all but the polished brass has all but disappeared.

 

Nick

 

EDIT: I've just found the LMS specification that you quoted in the back of the Essery & Jenkinson History vol 1. My excuse is that I've only read about a third of the way through the book, even though this section is referenced in the index As I read it, the two coats of white are only on the underside of the roof. Mind you, it looks like Bachmann have only given us the buff undercoat, maybe they didn't have any "Burnt Turkey Umber", whatever that is.