'O' gauge ? first tentative steps. Corrugated goods shed part 3: Painting and weathering

[Jack]

That's a relief... perhaps we could open the garden so folks could come and admire our stunning and varied collection of weeds, nettles and brambles. We could even serve teas to fund the layout build

 

Weeds, nettles and brambles ae all good for the wildlife!! Sounds like a good excuse for a garden layout ... that way you can convince the mrs you are "gardening" when actually your just playing trains ... brownie points and fun

[David Siddall]

Uh oh... garden layouts and all the temptations that go with them ...mainline locos, full-length trains, scale miles of flowing track formations, etc! That would have a very different effect than the one you're suggesting my friend. Budget will just about stretch to a small 'O' gauge branch terminus in the spare bedroom without going critical, and whilst Mrs S is thoroughly supportive of a modest venture she might frown on anything that involved major infrastructure 'dans le jardin'...

[David Siddall]

And today's milestone...

 

...ordering a selection of turnout templates from C&L so I can actually start to understand the relationship between A5s and B6s and all those other pointwork sizes that I'd never heard of before venturing into the world of 'O'.

 

Being one of those who likes to actually be able to see stuff (my brain isn't wired up handle calculations), and who already has to do daily battle with a dozen or so bits of specialist graphic design software I decided that I've done more than enough digital planning. It's time to do things with timber and stick bits of paper to the result. More on this story in due course...

[66C]

And today's milestone...

 

...ordering a selection of turnout templates from C&L so I can actually start to understand the relationship between A5s and B6s and all those other pointwork sizes that I'd never heard of before venturing into the world of 'O'.

 

 

 

May I refer you to my post earlier today on another topic.

 

Exactoscale have drawings that can be downloaded from here:

 

http://www.exactosca...k/4mmtrack.html

 

I know this is the 4mm track page but the drawings contain information that is useful for all standard gauge track.

 

Regards.

[David Siddall]

Thanks Bill... I've actually used Exactoscale's PDF templates before - I reduced one as a guide to building my first N gauge turnout a couple of layouts ago. The reason I've ordered from C&L is 1) curiosity (I want to see how/whether their templates differ from Exactoscale's); and 2) I'm one of those dimwits who need to see things in situ and context before the penny finally starts to drop. Oh yes, and 3), I'm only too happy to contribute a couple of quid to C&L at this preliminary stage in the proceedings as I suspect I'm going to be asking them a fair few questions over the forthcoming weeks.

 

Since my plan relies on curved turnouts I really want to get my thinking as right as I can as early as possible and I'm not 100% sure I know yet whether I want to go with their 'Timbertrack' bases or their standard product. The former seems to offer me a better chance of producing a prototypically accurate curved turnout which is shorter than Peco's 22-inch-long monster yet still capable of taking locos up to say a small 2-6-2 (be it a 45xx or an Ivatt 2). My turnouts will also have to carry my proposed primary freight traffic too (6-wheel milk tankers) and I'll only really start to feel confident and ready to start spending when I know a bit more. The grand plan being to start with a C&L 'turnout in a bag' and thereafter (I hope) work with their point kits to reduce the likelihood of my credit card going into meltdown!

 

D

[Warspite]

David

 

I’m very impressed with what you are doing here. Excellent planning and preparation. Makes my efforts look very unstructured!

 

Can’t wait to see you start building your hand made track, especially those curved turnouts. This could help a lot of us who haven’t taken the plunge.

 

Stephen

[David Siddall]

Thanks Stepehen... if my turnouts (especially the curved ones) comes out half as good as your weathering and scenics I'll be more than content. The rust effect on your mineral wagon is absolutely outstanding and the culvert is a superbly observed piece of modelling.

 

David

 

PS: If you don't mind me asking how did you create your retaining wall brickwork? Am thinking something similar to hide my sector plate.

[Warspite]

 

Thanks Stepehen... if my turnouts (especially the curved ones) comes out half as good as your weathering and scenics I'll be more than content. The rust effect on your mineral wagon is absolutely outstanding and the culvert is a superbly observed piece of modelling.

 

David

 

PS: If you don't mind me asking how did you create your retaining wall brickwork? Am thinking something similar to hide my sector plate.

 

David

 

Thanks for your nice comments. I wanted to represent different levels and the culvert seemed to a good way of drawing the eye into that corner of the layout.

 

For the retaining wall, I used OO scale embossed brick sheet (can't remember whose). I couldn't get any O scale at the time but it doesn't look too bad from the normal viewing distance. I made the buttresses by just doubling the sheet at suitable intervals.

 

The most fun was in painting and weathering: I painted the bricks using a mix of red and brown acrylics, painted a covering of light grey acrylic for the mortar when the brick colour was dry and then wiped most of the grey off. For weathering, I just applied washes of dark greys and browns. I looked at real walls and tried to replicate the lichen which gathers on the edges of buttresses. As the retaining wall is holding back an embankment, I put vegetation along the top to meet up with the edge of the bank.

 

Just don't look too closely at the photo - it's only when you photograph something do you see all the imperfections ..... and stray grass!

 

Stephen

 

[David Siddall]

I reckon that it's inherent in anyone with a creative streak that they're their own harshest critic Stephen - you may see imperfections but I'm seeing a superb recreation of a mature and rather neglected retaining wall which nature is doing its best to reclaim! I'd heard that 4mm scale scenic products can be used very effectively when modelling in 7mm scale and this definitely proves the point.

 

David

[David Siddall]

I might just have had a 'eureka' moment!

 

I've certainly mentioned before that the whole A5, B6 turnout description thing was seriously eluding me, and that despite extensive searching I'd failed to find anything remotely resembling a 'Turnouts for Dummies' guide to aid the newcomer to O Gauge planning a layout where space is at a premium yet for which they'd like to build their own track.

 

Well now... having discovered that AnyRail's layout planning software includes a library of C&L turnouts and an interactive ruler the thought occurred to me that it might be possible to create a simple visual comparator. I've rounded the dimensions up/down slightly to something I can recognise (measurements like 19/64ths of an inch are a bit obscure for my taste) but they're sufficiently accurate to help me order the right components.

 

 

...and for the first time I can now compare Peco's standard turnouts for 'O' with more prototypically accurate configurations:

 

 

It therefore looks (though I'm fully prepared to be corrected) as if a Peco standard turnout is slightly shorter lengthwise than an A5 and similar in radius (though the A5 is marginally tighter); and that a Peco curved point falls halfway (again lengthwise) between a B6 and a B7. On the presumption that all my proposed stock would successfully negotiate Peco medium turnouts this suggests that A5s should be the minimum size I work with for straight turnouts and that my curved ones should be based on B7s?

 

So... I'm finally ready to fire an order off to C&L for the layout's first turnout, a right-hand A5 which will allow arriving locos to enter the loop to run round their stock. As this will be my first attempt at hand-built track in this scale I'm opting for a turnout in a bag based on moulded sleepers. Much as I like the idea of lasercut, Timbertrack bases I think I'll err on the side of budgetary expediency for this one.

 

I'll try to document and illustrate progress with the turnout's construction in due course. If you want to see which turnout I'm starting with the plan I'm working to is here.

[66C]

Hi David

 

I realise you have made some progress with your project, but . . .

 

Have you considered using Templot?

 

Templot2 will be available free to download in the near future (although donations will be welcomed!). I know it has a learning curve but without it I would not have been able to create my own project in which every turnout is on some kind of curve.

 

You would be able to set up the through curves and then add the turnouts so that the track will really "flow".

 

The printed templates also make the actual track construction so much easier.

 

Regards.

[David Siddall]

Have you considered using Templot?

 

I certainly did consider Templot Jim. Templot.com was actually my first port of call when I decided it was time to convert my initial ideas into scale plans. It came highly recommended on this and other forums ...that's how I discovered that it's being updated and isn't currently available.

 

It's not that I'm impatient ...well I am actually; I think I've mentioned previously that time is a precious commodity and practical modelling time for me is those Autumn/Winter months when we're not actively pursuing outdoor activities. But that's not the full story. I'm also very happy to raise my modelling game in stages and what I'm embarking on (and am currently learning) with this project is a major step up from anything I've done before.

 

So Templot is therefore perhaps for the next layout and there are two reasons I say that. Firstly, I spend an unseemly proportion of my life cajoling specialist software into one sort of creative compromise or another (I'm a graphic designer), and the thought of taking on another software challenge at the moment leaves me feeling rather less than wholeheartedly enthusiastic. The second reason is that whilst I am right up there when it comes to admiring the sort of flowing combination of track and pointwork you're describing and have created (and acknowledging the skill involved in its construction), I have a sneaking suspicion it's not prototypically representative of lesser locations. The more I learn the more it would appear that whilst there there was quite an extensive pool of stock components for real-life railway engineers to draw upon, they didn't create individual custom formations to suit every location - particularly when financially pressed and working on relatively inconsequential commissions such as lesser branch termini. My feeling is that the creation of such bucolic track layouts was rather less about aesthetic form than function and financial expediency. Bit like my modelling in some respects ;-)

 

Thanks again for the encouragement... David

[JeffP]

Where will this free download be found?

 

I'd like to learn how to use it.......

[David Siddall]

Templot (www.templot.com) has a download page at http://85a.co.uk/for...p?post_id=10771 Jeff but it's currently saying 'Templot 2 is not yet available' (...apparently it's being given a major makeover?). My plan was created using AnyRail which is available here: www.anyrail.com/download_en.html. AnyRail is a free download and I found it intuitive to use and more than sufficient for my slightly luddite needs. Templot is the one which everyone seems to suggest involves a bit of a learning curve but those who've mastered it consider it the the absolute mutt's when it comes to turnout design.

 

There's a spectacularly informative Templot forum at: http://85a.co.uk/forum/ which includes discussions, advice, videos and a link to a development version of Templot 2: http://85a.co.uk/for...500&forum_id=18. Not for me at the moment but it might be an option for you to consider?

 

David

[David Siddall]

Something of a 'red letter' day today... C&L templates arrived in the post so I now know exactly what a 7mm scale A5 and B6 turnout look like. Stone me... even the A5's a big beast (the B6 is huge!). And how many different types of chairs???? Looking forward to making a start on my first turnout... well I think I am anyway... (slightly apprehensive emoticon)

[Warspite]

Something of a 'red letter' day today... C&L templates arrived in the post so I now know exactly what a 7mm scale A5 and B6 turnout look like. Stone me... even the A5's a big beast (the B6 is huge!). And how many different types of chairs???? Looking forward to making a start on my first turnout... well I think I am anyway... (slightly apprehensive emoticon)

 

Oh dear, what have you started ..............

 

 

Actually, really forward to seeing your progress with this. No going back now!

[Debs.]

Something of a 'red letter' day today... C&L templates arrived in the post so I now know exactly what a 7mm scale A5 and B6 turnout look like. Stone me... even the A5's a big beast (the B6 is huge!). And how many different types of chairs???? Looking forward to making a start on my first turnout... well I think I am anyway... (slightly apprehensive emoticon)

 

Pictures, please......lots of pictures.

[David Siddall]

Well I'm now the proud owner of a bagful of A5 turnout components from C&L and pretty magnificent they are too... a slight cock-up (more than likely mine when ordering) resulted in the roller gauges being supplied as 'Scale 7' rather than '7mm fine' but that will be sorted early next week. However what you get in a C&L 'turnout-in-a-bag' kit when ordered with a Timbertracks base includes:

• A precision-cut plywood sleeper base which can be flexed to create a curved turnout if required
  
• plain rail for the 'stock rails'
  
• pre-machined point blades
  
• a fully assembled crossing vee
  
• etched tie-bar components
  
• a bag of moulded chairs
  
• two sprues of moulded cosmetic fishplates
  
• a paper template
  
• ...and a set of roller-gauges.
  

Which, when gleefully extracted from the 'bag', look like this...

 

 

Now I've heard folks observe these kits to be a tad pricey when compared to a discounted Peco r-t-r turnout but a quick trawl of a few websites suggests that the track gauges make up quite a lot of that difference and these should only have to be bought once. There also appear to be rather more chairs and tie-bar components than are required for one turnout so that will also help reduce the price of turnout number two. What is clear to my eyes however is that what I've got has had at least two of the really challenging bits to get right done for me (the vee and the blades), and is going to produce a turnout that should look superior to a proprietary product when finished. The components can also be built left or right, straight or curved to precisely suit my track plan. And that to me is well worth the money I've paid.

 

 

One thing I did note (and fortunately copied) was a reply and a reference photo from '66c' in response to my last pre-Christmas post, neither of which made it to the last back-up before the 'server upgrade hiatus'. What '66c' said was, referring to my photo of C&L's A5 template drawing...

 

There's something not quite right with the track template drawing. Look at timber number 10 - the chairs are different on each side.

 

Looking at Exactoscale's (albeit 4mm:1ft) downloadable PDF template for an A5 turnout as '66c' suggested it shows a double chair both sides at timber 10 whereas C&L's show two separate chairs at timber 10 on the diverging side of the turnout? Now I believe construction practise varied from region to region (and even sometimes from location to location for reasons of expediency). Question: The turnouts I'll be building are for a GWR branch terminus layout with a timescale covering the 1950s to mid 1960s, so should I be attempting to replicate what I see on Exactoscale's template or C&L's? Um.....

[3 link]

Hi David,

 

Len Newman use to be the original owner of C & L finescale before he took over Exactoscale from the late Bernard Wellar, the chairs ( No 10) that you mention I know Exactoscale supply them and there is also another different chair you will need that sits under the tip of the vee, C&L do these in white metal. C&L sell a book called "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice" which is like the permanent way bible, I think this book would be worth you having being a Western region chap like myself . Looking through the book you will need to use the special chairs at timber 10, these are called "heel chairs" and the next one along is called a "special short-base chair ". As you say the cost is not to bad once you have the gauges,butone,etc. I buy 500 or a 1,000 timbers at a time and also a few metres of rail, the only thing I do buy are the point blades and the crossing vee's (because I'm to lazy to file them down myself and life's to short) . At the end of the day you cannot beat the look of hand built pointwork compared to R-T-R, and with Templot you can have whatever flowing combination of pointwork you want. You will not regret your decision and if you get stuck just give me or one of the guys on the forum a shout and we'll give you a hand. See you at Bristol.

 

ATB, Martyn .

[66C]

Hi David

 

Regardless of practise I do not think there should be a slide chair on timber 10 - that was what I really meant you to look at. I think there should be one or more bridge or heel chairs at the end of the switch rail before the joint with the closure rail depending on the length of the switch.

 

I will post the picture again showing the whole switch once uploads are possible.

 

Regards.

[Donw]

The templates may be slight compromises. Understanding the A5 B6 etc is not hard. The switch part is the letter A, B etc. A is the sharpest.Basically the switch letter defines the planning angle of the blades and the radius of the curved bit. Of course just to make life simple the GWR used fully curved switches which meant even the planned bit was curved whereas the others used semi curved switches where the planned bit was straight. This means a GWR A5 would be slightly different from an LMS A5.

The switch has to be married to a crossing 1:5 etc. For a particular switch crossing combination there is a defined length from the blades tips to the crossing nose called the lead. The rail joining the swtich to the crossing is called the closure rail and its radius will usually be less than the switch radius but not greater. In some cases with a sharp switch and a flat crossing e.g. A9 part of the closure rail may have to be straight.

Full size the sharper switches restrict the speed of trains which is why A switches are used in sidings and C and D are more common in main lines. This is not a big problem with models due to the reduction in inertia forces with scale. So an A6 or A7 can be quite useful.

My tables do not show the GWR using fully curved A switches. And rather than using E or F continued to use 300ft straight switches.

However a semi curved A5 would have a lead of of 47ft2in and a closure radius of 212ft. The latter equates to just under 5ft for 0 gauge and may be a bit tight for some stock and particularly for crossovers where you have an S curve effect. I found A5.5 a bit easier at 49ft2in and 264ft respectively.

Most of this is covered in the Guild manual.

The is one additional problem in that due to our looser standards with greater flangeways the switches need to open wider. Increasing the switch length and adding additional switch chairs can help particularly with the earlier straight switches where the heel divergence was only 4.5ins not enough for the railhead and the flangeway in most scales (S7 and P4 modellers can look smug here) so some adjustment has to be made.

One other point is you curve a turnout the inside radius will tighten an A5 will not curve much before the inside radius becomes rather tight.

 

Don

[David Siddall]

...the chairs (No 10) that you mention, I know Exactoscale supply them and there is also another different chair you will need that sits under the tip of the vee, C&L do these in white metal. C&L sell a book called "GWR Switch and Crossing Practice" which is like the permanent way bible... looking through the book you will need to use the special chairs at timber 10, these are called "heel chairs" and the next one along is called a "special short-base chair ".

 

Regardless of practise I do not think there should be a slide chair on timber 10 - that was what I really meant you to look at. I think there should be one or more bridge or heel chairs at the end of the switch rail before the joint with the closure rail depending on the length of the switch.

 

Thanks for this Martin and Bill... have had a look at the Exactoscale website but not sure what I should be ordering? They offer '4-hole L1 bridge chairs' - are these what I'll need? Can't see 'heel chairs' or 'special short-base chairs' though. I have however found the recommended '7mm crossing nose chairs' in whitemetal on the C&L site so I'll add a pack of those to my next order.

 

The templates may be slight compromises. Understanding the A5 B6 etc is not hard... One other point is you curve a turnout the inside radius will tighten an A5 will not curve much before the inside radius becomes rather tight.

 

Much appreciated Don, that's just that kind of guidance which is starting to waft away the fog of ignorance which, for me anyway, previously surrounded the theory and terminology of prototype turnouts. If this were a marathon however I'm clearly still in the same category of the guy in the comedy rabbit costume who staggers in 24 hours after the front-runners! When I described a Timbertracks base as being 'capable of being curved if required' I wasn't, you'll be relieved to know, planning to do so with an A5. I'll leave that for my B6s ;-)

 

However, I will have to ask you guys to bear with me as this will be the first time I've tried turnout construction which doesn't involve soldering direct to copper-clad sleepers (my hand-made N gauge turnouts certainly worked but they lacked what you might call prototype fidelity), ...so I think I'd like to try this first attempt at something more sophisticated 'straight from the bag' as it were to see what I can achieve and reserve the finer points (apologies for the ghastly pun) of turnout construction for the next one and those which follow.

 

It has also occurred to me that my sole item of rolling stock won't build itself and that if I'm going to construct a turnout I ought to have something to test it with, so I'm going to try and complete a Peco 'mineral' kit at some point over the next couple of days and leave starting the turnout 'till next weekend. New Year's Day is however also Mrs S's birthday so the consequences of tonight's celebrations could result in symptoms which might last for some time and which are not exactly conducive to the standards of modelling to which I aspire. A phenomenon which I find afflicts me more as I get older - I certainly don't recall ever being such a lightweight when I was younger anyway :-)

 

BFN and 'Happy New Year'.... David

[Warspite]

David

 

I have just read the last few posts, especially Don's which I read, and re-read and read again! I'm just glad Santa brought you the 'turn-out in a bag' and not me!

 

Seriously though, I am fascinated and impressed with the way this thread is going. Perhaps you could bring the completed turnout to Bristol ......... only joking.

 

Happy New Year and Happy Birthday to Mrs S for tomorrow.

 

Stephen

[66C]

 

 

 

Thanks for this Martin and Bill... have had a look at the Exactoscale website but not sure what I should be ordering? They offer '4-hole L1 bridge chairs' - are these what I'll need? Can't see 'heel chairs' or 'special short-base chairs' though. I have however found the recommended '7mm crossing nose chairs' in whitemetal on the C&L site so I'll add a pack of those to my next order.

 

 

 

Much appreciated Don, that's just that kind of guidance which is starting to waft away the fog of ignorance which, for me anyway, previously surrounded the theory and terminology of prototype turnouts. If this were a marathon however I'm clearly still in the same category of the guy in the comedy rabbit costume who staggers in 24 hours after the front-runners! When I described a Timbertracks base as being 'capable of being curved if required' I wasn't, you'll be relieved to know, planning to do so with an A5. I'll leave that for my B6s ;-)

 

 

There's nothing wrong with curved A5 turnouts - pictures will now have to be threatened once the upload issues are sorted.

 

You will need to do a little bodging for the special chairs at the common crossing and the heel chairs. Bridge chairs are used where clearances are tight and normal 2, 3 or 4 bolt chairs will not fit without trimming. Checkrail chairs are now available from here (at a price!):

 

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/otr?sg28085[rows]=5#sg28085

 

It is, however, quite easy to make up checkrail chairs from pairs of 2 or 4 bolt chairs - again pictures later.

 

The Exactoscale drawings are very helpful in showing what type of chair goes where.

 

I would also suggest studying pictures of turnouts to see what the various types of chairs look like and this will help you decide how to make up the special chairs from what is available.

 

All the best for the New Year.

[3 link]

 

There's nothing wrong with curved A5 turnouts - pictures will now have to be threatened once the upload issues are sorted.

 

You will need to do a little bodging for the special chairs at the common crossing and the heel chairs. Bridge chairs are used where clearances are tight and normal 2, 3 or 4 bolt chairs will not fit without trimming.

 

I totally agree with the above statement, as it is only fairly recent that the Heel, Bridge call it what you like chairs have been available. Before this you had to trim the chairs to make up a fair rendition of what they should look like especially at the check rails with a sharp craft knife.

 

And also a, Happy New Year and Happy Birthday to Mrs S for tomorrow.

 

Martyn.