Headshunt for Engine Release Crossovers

[Tim Dubya]

Hi Guys

 

I hope I've got my terminology right with this one:

 

Basically are there any hard and fast rules for the length of the headshunt(?) at a platform for an engine release cross over or is it simply make it as long as you longest loco?

 

I'm thinking of BR(S) branchlines in Devon so my loco's would be BR standard tanks, Ivatt tanks, M7's and probably N class and maybe a T9.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Tim

[beast66606]

Varies .. so the answer is as long as a piece of string headshunt

[Tim Dubya]

Varies .. so the answer is as long as a piece of string headshunt

Brilliant no rules.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[The Stationmaster]

Basic piece of planning data this one - for anyone planning a layout - there should be sufficient room beyond your engine release crossover for your longest loco (as the OP thought). And it is not called a headshunt - it is simply part of the platform line as it could be occupied by a train.

 

Second piece of planning data - don't forget that you have to leave the train (from which the loco detaches prior to running round) far enough from the point to ensure that it is not hit by the loco as it crosses over to the other line, and there has to be enough room to cross the loco at the other end as well. Thus the distance between crossovers - or what ever other pointwork there is at the other end - plus allowance for the Fouling Points (i.e. the places where the stock fouls the loco as it crosses over) will determine the length of the longest train that you can run-round. And don't forget that at most branch termini the goods also had to run-round in the platform line.

[Rivercider]

A quick look through some of my books shows that in the West Country most are, as you suggest, just long enough for one loco.

Exmouth, Sidmouth, Seaton, Lyme Regis all seem to be one loco length.

At Chard Town the run-round loop was beyond the end of the platform, so a run-round required a setting back move first.

On summer saturdays if double heading is required the locos would have to be run-round separately.

 

cheers

[10800]

It's always fun watching Pacifics at places like Pickering and Swanage - you think they'll have to lift up the last wheelset to clear the points!

[Tim Dubya]

Thanks all

 

A bit more research for me. I've got a couple of books on the South Devon branches but I've been unable to determine the lengths at the end of the platform roads from photographs (and can't find any with a loco present). The only decent shot I can find on the web of the engine release crossover is on the Disused Stations website of Sidmouth but doesn't show the entire length. I'll have to re-read the books to see if I can find more data on the loco's used on the line and measure appropriately.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/index.shtml

 

Time for a work break!

 

Thanks again.

 

Tim

[Black Sheep]

Or you could be awkward and put a turntable there instead!

 

there are a couple of prototype examples that have existed.

[EddieB]

 

Second piece of planning data - don't forget that you have to leave the train (from which the loco detaches prior to running round) far enough from the point to ensure that it is not hit by the loco as it crosses over to the other line, and there has to be enough room to cross the loco at the other end as well. Thus the distance between crossovers - or what ever other pointwork there is at the other end - plus allowance for the Fouling Points (i.e. the places where the stock fouls the loco as it crosses over) will determine the length of the longest train that you can run-round. And don't forget that at most branch termini the goods also had to run-round in the platform line.

 

Funnily enough I was watching a DVD filmed at Cowes (IOW) yesterday evening. Instead of stopping short of the crossover, uncoupling and drawing forward to run round, the loco (Adams O2, of course), used to draw its train right up to the platform end, uncouple, then reverse and shove the carriages clear of fouling the crossover. The loco would then run forward into the "headshunt", back over the cross over and run round the carriages that, meanwhile, were being gravity shunted back down the platform road under control of the guard's handbrake.

 

I've seen similar operations with a four-wheel electric at Oberammergau (as described in an issue of "Continental Modeller" many years ago).

 

Ok, might have happened on the Isle of Wight or in Germany, but most definitely not in England!

[Boris]

It's always fun watching Pacifics at places like Pickering and Swanage - you think they'll have to lift up the last wheelset to clear the points!

That loco spur at Pickering is bigger than is looks, you'd surprised how much space even the big pacifics actually have spare when running round.

[PWSlack]

For operational reasons, make the platform longer than the longest train plus the release crossover including clearance length plus the engine headshunt. Doing so will save a couple of setting-back manouevres that will otherwise impact on the luggage compartments' servicing and so will minimise the impact on the timetable.

[Guest stuartp]

Ok, might have happened on the Isle of Wight or in Germany, but most definitely not in England!

 

Quite common in Scotland though, given the number of pics in various albums showing the incoming loco sitting up against the buffers.

[Black Sheep]

 

Quite common in Scotland though, given the number of pics in various albums showing the incoming loco sitting up against the buffers.

 

Unless they were long trains needing the full length of platform, the loco being released using the station pilot?

[Guest stuartp]

I wasn't thinking of anywhere busy enough to need a station pilot. This (result of a very quick google) is Ballachullish for example:

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=28723

 

Ok, the loco isn't sitting on the buffers but the coaches definitely weren't in that position when they were run round !

[Fat Controller]

I wasn't thinking of anywhere busy enough to need a station pilot. This (result of a very quick google) is Ballachullish for example:

 

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=28723

 

Ok, the loco isn't sitting on the buffers but the coaches definitely weren't in that position when they were run round !

There's a photo on Page 43 of 'Heyday of the Hydraulics', taken in 1968 of a Hymek at Ilfracombe. The caption says that the loco is pushing back its stock, prior to running round the train. At the point when the photo was taken, the loco was about half-way across the points, whilst the tail of the 9-coach train is already off the end of the platform. The driver is leaning out of the cab window to see exactly where the loco is in relation to the points, so presumably clearances were pretty tight.

Interestingly, the part of the platform between the buffer-stops and the crossover has an overall roof and full-height screen wall- I wonder how long that bit was?

[beast66606]

My comments are based on the simple premise that the release roads were often installed when locos were short, I know of several where bigger engines weren't able to run round - as per Brians (above) comment - hence they could be "any" length.

[The Stationmaster]

Funnily enough I was watching a DVD filmed at Cowes (IOW) yesterday evening. Instead of stopping short of the crossover, uncoupling and drawing forward to run round, the loco (Adams O2, of course), used to draw its train right up to the platform end, uncouple, then reverse and shove the carriages clear of fouling the crossover. The loco would then run forward into the "headshunt", back over the cross over and run round the carriages that, meanwhile, were being gravity shunted back down the platform road under control of the guard's handbrake.

 

I've seen similar operations with a four-wheel electric at Oberammergau (as described in an issue of "Continental Modeller" many years ago).

 

Ok, might have happened on the Isle of Wight or in Germany, but most definitely not in England!

Oh yes it did (well a slight variant thereon) in a couple of places the GW ran round by the simple expedient of propelling the stock back into a siding then standing the loco to one side and gravitating the stock into the platforms ready to reattach the loco at the other end - saved having a release crossover and loop.

[10800]

Oh yes it did (well a slight variant thereon) in a couple of places the GW ran round by the simple expedient of propelling the stock back into a siding then standing the loco to one side and gravitating the stock into the platforms ready to reattach the loco at the other end - saved having a release crossover and loop.

 

Wellington was one I think, for the Wenlock branch train. In fact wasn't there a model of Wellington which reproduced this operation, albeit with a motorised coach?

 

Edit: yes there was, in EM and featured in MRJ #64

[The Stationmaster]

 

Wellington was one I think, for the Wenlock branch train. In fact wasn't there a model of Wellington which reproduced this operation, albeit with a motorised coach?

That might make three then Rod as the two I had in mind were Maiden Newton (where evidence of the method survived until the end of the Bridport branch) and Yelverton.

[Rivercider]

.

 

Ok, might have happened on the Isle of Wight or in Germany, but most definitely not in England!

 

I believe that at Ilfracombe, before remodelling in 1929, the train loco was released by a gravity shunt.

In 1925 a coach ran through the buffers during the operation.

 

cheers

[Guest stuartp]

For the avoidance of doubt, I was referring to the practice of pulling right up to the buffers and then setting back with the coaches rather than the subsequent gravity shunt .

 

Meanwhile, back at the OP, I vaguely remember one of the preservation societies (K&WVR ?) having to extend their headshunt because the one they inherited from BR wouldn't take two tender locos coupled together.

[TheSignalEngineer]

At Rugby I remember seeing a Peterborough train run into the south bay. After the passengers got out the engine pushed the train back out of the station and up the bank towards Clifton Road flyover. The engine then went off to the shed, and the guard let the coaches back into the platform on the handbrake. I saw this several times around 1960-62 period.

[SwissRailPassion]

Funnily enough I was watching a DVD filmed at Cowes (IOW) yesterday evening. Instead of stopping short of the crossover, uncoupling and drawing forward to run round, the loco (Adams O2, of course), used to draw its train right up to the platform end, uncouple, then reverse and shove the carriages clear of fouling the crossover. The loco would then run forward into the "headshunt", back over the cross over and run round the carriages that, meanwhile, were being gravity shunted back down the platform road under control of the guard's handbrake.

 

I've seen similar operations with a four-wheel electric at Oberammergau (as described in an issue of "Continental Modeller" many years ago).

 

Ok, might have happened on the Isle of Wight or in Germany, but most definitely not in England!

Yes, Sidmouth was a station where they used gravity shunting for many years and space was tight as the platforms were short. Most mainline sized locos could use the station including pacifics. There is film of the run rounds at Sidmouth on a well known DVD.

[RJS1977]

That might make three then Rod as the two I had in mind were Maiden Newton (where evidence of the method survived until the end of the Bridport branch) and Yelverton.

 

Helston was another.

 

Incidentally I know of at least one preserved railway that laid a run round loop with a headshunt long enough that if they hired in "City of Truro" (much longer than the usual locos on the line), it would be able to run around, Unfortunately then they discovered they couldn't get the coaches in the loop....

[Tim Dubya]

Yes, Sidmouth was a station where they used gravity shunting for many years and space was tight as the platforms were short. Most mainline sized locos could use the station including pacifics. There is film of the run rounds at Sidmouth on a well known DVD.

Do you know the name / supplier of the DVD or if you've seen it please could you let me know if BoB / WC's could use the engine release crossover to run round. (Controlled) Gravity shunting does sound interesting prospect to achieve in 4mm.

 

Cheers

 

Tim