Pennine MC Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I seem to remember Cyril Freezer saying 20' x 12' was about the biggest one person could comfortably handle - beyond that could only really be handled if it was a smaller plan expanded out, but since there are few spare rooms that size anyway there would be no point in building one that big if you could fit the same plan into a smaller space. I remember that quote. As well as not spending money building a shed (or whatever) bigger than it needed to be, he made the point that if a bigger room was already there, it would be best utilised by doing such things as lengthening trains, easing curves and larger operating wells Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Given the space, I'm guessing quite a lot of us would end up 'filling it with railway' without actually intending to, in whatever gauge we choose to model..... if enough of a decent length were available though, it would be much more realistic (and I suspect visually satisfying) to have longish sections of plain line, whether it be single, double, quadruple track etc, with the surrounding ground level changing above and below the railway itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest notascoobie Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Good afternoon. On a thread discussing the feasibility of large layouts, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Roy Jackson's Retford layout. I think it's about 70ft by 30ft at it's extreme measurements. It's undoubtedly Roy's own layout although he gets help from various friends. I don't think he feels it's too big since he's currently extending the GN fiddle yards to accept even more trains. If you havn't seen it, the layout is EM Gauge with Roy's handbuilt pointwork. An incredible effort although it's taken more than a couple of weeks so far. Vernon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 After making the mistake of 'building too big' in 1963 I went in for TT gauge on a small plank. It was very satisfying working on detail. A Triang A1A-A1A was the initial motive power until I built a BEC whitemetal LMS 4F and an LMS GUV, but as the track was also handbuilt, it took ages to build even that layout between shifts. That is why a million years later I use as much ready-to-plonk anything I can find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I think big is for trainset and small is for model railway. I have a couple of attics at my disposal (my dad's and my own). My dad's would be good for a big trainset where I can run scale length trains and not have to worry too much about masses of fine detail. I am thinking along the lines of Hadley Wood for that one - no pointwork on the main line, between two tunnels, out in the countryside. For my home layout, having a smaller loft, something more compact based on the West London Line would be nice. Less trainset and more model railway. Having been involved in building a super detailed layout for exhibition, I now appreciate the amount of time and effort required to build 15ft of scenery. Harford Street is only 3/4 complete and it has taken over two years for three of us to model what we have so far. The layout will require 18ft of scenery. We also had a head start, having buildings off the original Harford Street layout to get us going. Going at it from scratch would have been a lot more time consuming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted December 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 4, 2011 When I had ground level lines in the garden, I spent an inordinate amount of time making sure the ballast was packed and it was free of weeks; that nothing had dropped across the rails and that rail spikes and fish plates were not working loose. On occasions I was able to run trains as well. It taught me two things: Running a real railway is hard work! Your railway is too big when you no longer enjoy working on it. I would also maintain that once you no longer enjoy it, the railway has run it's useful course. Some of us have a higher tolerance than others, and like Roy Jackson, among others. are in it for the long haul. Other, with the attention span of a goldfish, and I include myself in that category, prefer something smaller; build it ,run it and then discard it and start all over again. After all it is a hobby and we ought to enjoy what we are doing.......................which is probably why next spring I will be tearing down the raised outdoor line and relaying it.....at ground level! Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Ah, the old "space" problem. I know it was Tony Koester in Model Railroader who had a friend with one...the friend had bought a Nike missile battery site, and had the magazine for his railway. Quite what he was going to put in an area about equal to a basketball court was open for discussion. I have ~700 sq ft to run the OO through. And run through it does- mostly, around the edges. Long Marton is 30 ft long by 3 ft wide on the scenic part- plus 6' of curves at the ends, and then the rest of the gubbins. It's runable, but it is not a complicated layout from a track plan prospective. I have the lego as well, which runs over the storage yard for Long Marton (about 24x12), and that took 3 days to put back together this time & get running. (Daniel, my 6 year old and I were running trains this morning). (basically, I haven't been home for 5 months. That's job related) I figure Long Marton will be running again by the end of the year, in circular only. The middle yard still needs another 6' baseboard building, and then I will get back to making it run as a double track railway again. Scenicly, it is mostly just styrospan painted green and roughly shaped to fit. The area involved means that it is not going to have teased teddy bear fluff for grass, but something easier to apply. I expect that I will be working on LM when I retire (~4 years) as I have been working on it here for the last 10 years. Building wise, I have some of the buildings roughed out, but probably will end up redoing them. What i considered acceptable 15 years ago (!) I don't now. Now I have high speed internet, I will start taking more photos... James Powell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 dad's would be good for a big trainset where I can run scale length trains and not have to worry too much about masses of fine detail. Big layouts don't have to be dumb. Think of the huge finescale layouts like retford or Camden bank and the still big ones like wibdenshaw and mostyn and a 6ft chunk of any of them can hold their own against the best micro layouts. The era of the very large very high quality layouts is definitely dawning. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'd be fascinated by Pete W's take on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Big layouts don't have to be dumb. Think of the huge finescale layouts like retford or Camden bank and the still big ones like wibdenshaw and mostyn Cheers Jim And P4 New Street. Big layouts are dooable in high detail if you have plenty of people or plenty of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewC Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm with Jim S-W on this one. Saying that large layouts are trainsets is pure rubbish. I think a lot of what limits size in the UK apart from physical space is the desire to see a completed model. I sometimes wonder if there isn't too much emphasis on modelling to a timetable to complete something for exhibiting. Then getting on the treadmill of having to produce something new every couple of years. Personally I'd rather just kick back and enjoy my hobby and not be enslaved to the exhibition circuit. If my layout gets an invite then great, if not, big deal. I model for my own pleasure first and foremost. As Jim said, its the journey and not the destination. This is true far more so in North America where many of the monster 1500-2000sqft basement layouts are a lifetime's work. Some of the pikes I've had the honour of being invited to operate are just as detailed if not more so than some of the tiny 4' by 2' micros being exhibited. There is also such a thing as over guilding the lily and trying to cram too much detail into a small layout, but that's a different topic. I've had in the past, very large basement areas at my disposal. The site of a full length HST at speed on a 70' straight is wonderful. However multiple house moves meant I never stayed in one place to get any of my opus layouts to any stage of completion. At one point I had the station throat for Kings Cross laid down on a 5' by 30' baseboard. It would take me close to an hour just to clean all the track before running. I think for me the realistic max size (your mileage may vary) is about 30' by 10'. The railway shed / man cave is 24 by 12 so its about right. As per previous topics around making a permanent v portable layout, construction has started on the portable bits which will link into a permanent but removable section. In a way its a series of smaller layout cameos that will form a larger single one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I think someone's misunderstood Baby Deltic's intent here. When he said his old man's loft would be ideal for a big trainset I don't think he was being in any way condescending, it was just a quick way of sharing some empirical info. I frequently refer to my large tailchaser in the garage as a big trainset, simply as a form of shorthand. That doesn't mean it's taken from Hornby's Trackplan book Volume 3, complete with giraffe ducking under the pole and operating mailbag set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Jim's comment about it being the journey is just so aposite. With New Hey I've a 24 x 12 layout which if I want to "play" with it, then I have to take it to a show, or borrow the local Scout hut. Between these periods it resides in its dissassembled constituent boards in the garage. Some would regard this as frustrating, and in one sense, yes it is, I cant immediately test new stock on it or test things full stop. It makes working on it difficult. But at the end of the day its been a fulfilling project, the idea germinating over 8 years ago, a rocky road paved with loads of ideas and inspiration, catastrophic failures, major successes, and at the end of the day a satisfaction of recreating what was actually there at that time. So then to the OP, how big is too big? Its nothing to do with the size of the layout, its about having the ambition, drive and determination to build it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Hi Chard I didnt take BD's comments as condescending but the idea (to use his words) that big is for trainset and small is for model railway has been around for a long time. Theres no question to my mind that people think high level of details is the domain of small layouts and to a degree they would be right. I dont think there have been so many very big, very high quality layouts around as there seems to be now. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I think someone's misunderstood Baby Deltic's intent here. When he said his old man's loft would be ideal for a big trainset I don't think he was being in any way condescending, it was just a quick way of sharing some empirical info. I frequently refer to my large tailchaser in the garage as a big trainset, simply as a form of shorthand. That doesn't mean it's taken from Hornby's Trackplan book Volume 3, complete with giraffe ducking under the pole and operating mailbag set. Indeed. Thankyou Richard, you knew where I was coming from. I don't have the time, nor inclination to build a big scenic layout, but at the same time, if a big attic is up for grabs and I can run 12 coach trains in the length available, then, compared with 'Harford Street' it will be a bit of a trainset- to start with, at least. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Jim's comment about it being the journey is just so aposite. With New Hey I've a 24 x 12 layout which if I want to "play" with it, then I have to take it to a show, or borrow the local Scout hut. Between these periods it resides in its dissassembled constituent boards in the garage. Some would regard this as frustrating, and in one sense, yes it is, I cant immediately test new stock on it or test things full stop. It makes working on it difficult. But at the end of the day its been a fulfilling project, the idea germinating over 8 years ago, a rocky road paved with loads of ideas and inspiration, catastrophic failures, major successes, and at the end of the day a satisfaction of recreating what was actually there at that time. So then to the OP, how big is too big? Its nothing to do with the size of the layout, its about having the ambition, drive and determination to build it. I know where you're coming from with that one. Harford Street is now folded up in a corner of the layout room where our club meets. My baby deltic's haven't turned a wheel yet. That's why I fancy doing a big layout with reasonable scenery and a long run to act as a test track where I can give new stock a run immediately and just enjoy playing trains without the serious modelling input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 If you have the time, go as big as you like If you have the space and dosh that is, its all a matter of balance. 16' x 8' was more than I could handle. When I moved here we had a lovely integral garage and I started on a 'compressed' version of Lostwithiel. Many weeks of base board building (many) allowing for shift work, then months seemingly building endless points and lengths of track. After 4 years, we needed the garage to be converted into a kitchen, so it was all scrapped! (The points are still in the back of the new garage!). As an interim, Carrick Road mark 1 was born, (as a quickie) in what was then a small spare room (now a study). The rest is history Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Big layouts can be done to a very high standard if you have a lot of time or a lot of help at hand. As the old addage goes - many hands make light work. On the flip side of the coin - too many cooks spoil the broth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 On the flip side of the coin - too many cooks spoil the broth. And that is exactly why theres so many cr*p club big roundy roundy layouts on the circuit - a complete lack of quality control and modelled to the lowest common denominator, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 And that is exactly why theres so many cr*p club big roundy roundy layouts on the circuit - a complete lack of quality control and modelled to the lowest common denominator, You have to get a well organised team together where everyone's strong points are identified and any modelling that doesn't 'cut the mustard' is not allowed on the layout. That's where a lot of clubs fall short, as you say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Hi Chard I didnt take BD's comments as condescending but the idea (to use his words) that big is for trainset and small is for model railway has been around for a long time. It was AndrewC's comment that I thought had jumped a couple of posts in the logic, Jim, that was specifically what I was attempting to correct. The three of youse then made very valid related points, to be fair and balanced! That and baiting Baby D into calling me Richard, which is always a fun trap to create! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 That and baiting Baby D into calling me Richard, which is always a fun trap to create! Yeah, sorry about that. I now know your true identity which shall remain classified. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Mind you at times, we could all do with a few extra inches! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Mind you at times, we could all do with a few extra inches! I could do with losing quite a few around my middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 And that is exactly why theres so many cr*p club big roundy roundy layouts on the circuit - a complete lack of quality control and modelled to the lowest common denominator, Interstingly these cr*p quite frequuently become redundant as club exhibition layouts but with a bit of work they are suitable for home use. They are often broken up but sometimes clubs seek a buyer. I acquired one for a very small sum and in effect saved hundreds of hours. See picture, based on Woodford Hulse GC, Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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