Altnerative steam & modernisation

[stewartingram]

Every time someone says "Conditions were bad in steam days", I think blimey, it has put it on the same level as the workhouse and bowls of gruel. Not even coal mining has as bad a reputation as railway work......

 

Surely if investment had been there, there would have been some directed to working conditions/tools/buildings etc? Improving the lot for the men on the ground, not just investing in the locos. It never ceases to amaze me, how a modern depot/workshop is clinically CLEAN, compared to the same place 30/40/50 years ago, eveven when d&e had by then ousted steam.

 

Stewart

[ForestPines]

When I shifted back to England, again with a fairly busy yard and buoyant traffic, one of my colleagues had spent a lot of time trying to recruit Guards - literally at the prison gates at one time. The shifts and poor pay again put folk off.

 

The comments above about Guards' pay in the 1970s reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my teachers, just before leaving school for university, in the 1990s. I was one of the very last cohorts of students to receive a grant, but my teacher wanted to help us realise just how small our grants would be, compared with those students received in the 1970s. He was a student around 1970, and his father was a Goods Guard based in Fife. Not only did he receive more than enough money to live on, he sent a large portion of his grant back to his family, because he had considerably more disposable income than his parents.

 

I saw much the same in Poland in the mid 1970s but even there, in a heavily 'managed' economy PKP clearly had difficulty in recruiting footplate and running shed staff in the north of the country while in the south the picture was the exact opposite.

 

The GDR tried to help recruitment by training up enthusiastic teenagers to operate "Pioneer Railways", narrow gauge lines in city parks - the Pioneers being a sort of compulsary Communist Scout organisation. The idea was essentially that kids who liked the thought of working on the railways could be trained up whilst still at school, and be ready to go straight onto the main line as soon as they were old enough. I'm not sure how well it worked in practice, but several of the railways are still operating.

[The Stationmaster]

I am not sure that having electric elements powered by overhead wires would make a good mix.

Nothing wrong with that guv (for shunting if nothing else) http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/swisselec/swisselc.htm

[Catkins]

I posted previously -

"I am not sure that having electric elements powered by overhead wires would make a good mix."

 

Nothing wrong with that guv (for shunting if nothing else) http://www.aqpl43.ds...ec/swisselc.htm

 

I'm still not convinced, on three bases -

1) have you seen what wet, i.e. from the safety valves, steam does when mixed with electricity? (think B1 + Liverpool Street)

2) If you are going to use electricity to heat water - How is the elctricity generated to power the Electro-Steamer? (After all you don't boil a kettle to fill and boil another kettle)

3) And how long did they last like that?

 

Other than all that I see nothing wrong with them.

[The Stationmaster]

I posted previously -

"I am not sure that having electric elements powered by overhead wires would make a good mix."

 

 

 

I'm still not convinced, on three bases -

1) have you seen what wet, i.e. from the safety valves, steam does when mixed with electricity? (think B1 + Liverpool Street)

2) If you are going to use electricity to heat water - How is the elctricity generated to power the Electro-Steamer? (After all you don't boil a kettle to fill and boil another kettle)

3) And how long did they last like that?

 

Other than all that I see nothing wrong with them.

I doubt they lasted very long once electric (proper electric that is) shunting locos or coal for the steam ones was available. And over the years I saw loads of steam engines blowing off under the wires on BR although it wasn't encouraged as far as I'm aware (have a look at this - although it is a B12

)

[TheSignalEngineer]

The big problem was not so much steam, which being virtually pure water vapour has low electrical conductivity, but soot contamination on insulators leading to current leakage and arcing.

[Sylvian Tennant]

Yeah in the end, water would just evapourate back into the air, the soot and contaminant would be a major problem. What I read there (which concerns me a slight bit) is the generation of the power. By the 1950/60-or even the 70/80's would technology have improved enough to

make electricty to heat transfer efficient and reliable?

[GC Jack]

As its based on speculation I think this thread could run and run!

 

It has raised some interesting comments and I wonder what a blue 9f with a double arrow applied to the tender would look like, I won't try it though.

 

The Vale of Rheidol had corporate blue applied to the locos - looked horrible to me - but it does give a clue as to what BR might have done.

 

Jack

[scots region]

As its based on speculation I think this thread could run and run!

 

It has raised some interesting comments and I wonder what a blue 9f with a double arrow applied to the tender would look like, I won't try it though.

 

The Vale of Rheidol had corporate blue applied to the locos - looked horrible to me - but it does give a clue as to what BR might have done.

 

Jack

 

Actually, this has always annoyed me when someone suggests 'Br Steam into the 80s', since its non standard stock wouldn't it make more sense to leave it in black rather than repainting a fleet which you have no intention providing life - extending maintainace for?

[GC Jack]

I wasn't suggesting that Scots Region just speculation, which is the problem with this thread really.

 

If they intended keeping some steam locos for another decade they would have had to undertake a full maintainence programme rather than make do and mend until they fell apart, which became the policy in the late 1960's.

 

If there was a longer term future for some steam would they have gone into corporate blue? My observation was simply that the Vale of Rheidol gives us an insight into BR's possible policy.

 

I agree with you black is the appropriate livery for these machines, which was adopted pretty well world wide for freight locos, so - again - speculation would BR have seen sense and kept it that way?

 

Jack

[scots region]

Thats alright Jack, I wasn't meaning to cause offence.

 

By the way, heres a little Alternative history challenge. The Midland railway had entrenched probelms with long coal drags and a small engine policy, but with the SDJR 7F 2-8-0 Derby proved it could build heavy feight locos. So how can you make the 7F the midlands standard feight class?

[GC Jack]

I'll need to check my books on this but they did also attempt an 0-8-0 was it nicknamed the Austin 7?

 

From my limited knowledge - someone put me right - wasn't the 7f designed by someone in the drawing office rather than Fowler?

 

I think the 7f had the potential to be an excellent loco but again am I right,ingrained Derby methods (replicated with the Garrets) caused steaming problems and hampered the efficiency of the class.

 

Wasn't it that until Stanier came and swept all this away that things progressed?

 

Jack

[James]

Jobs like the railway had a commerade that doesn't exist today because of insecurity and short-term-ism.

 

I'd say that it is still present on the railway from my own experience.

[coachmann]

I think the 7f had the potential to be an excellent loco but again am I right,ingrained Derby methods (replicated with the Garrets) caused steaming problems and hampered the efficiency of the class.

The Fowler 7F 'Austin Seven' had a very good boiler that was based on the LNWR G2 boiler married to a modern 'engine' portion with Walschaerts valve gear, long lap long travel valves and multi-ring valve heads. They should have been a sure fire winner but the combination of high piston thrust combined with high axle loadings simply overwhelmed the grossly inadequate axle boxes that had been fitted as a result of the dreaded hand of Andersen. As a result these strong engines became badly run down very quickly after passing through works for overhaul. The LMS was able to write them off as a dead loss due to the advent of Staniers 8F 2-8-0 and the availablilty of so many Austerity 2-8-0s after the war was the final nail in their coffin. 70% of the class had gone for scrap by 1951, even so, they lingered on in pockets around Manchester and Liverpool until 1961. I remembre them well......One of my favourites.

[Trevellan]

Surely if investment had been there, there would have been some directed to working conditions/tools/buildings etc? Improving the lot for the men on the ground, not just investing in the locos. It never ceases to amaze me, how a modern depot/workshop is clinically CLEAN, compared to the same place 30/40/50 years ago, eveven when d&e had by then ousted steam.

There's been many a debate in the heritage railway arena about how working practices with steam could have changed with the will and investment. For example, ash disposal could feasibly be undertaken using powered extraction equipment (think of an industrial strength vacuum cleaner). It would still be difficult to keep inspection pits clean because even well maintained steam locomotives leak oil and water. Another labour saving device is pre-heating boilers by pumping increasingly hot water through special valves. This has been done on modern rack locomotives in Switzerland and saves labour on steam-raising. No doubt there are many other examples which I am not privy to.

[The Stationmaster]

There's been many a debate in the heritage railway arena about how working practices with steam could have changed with the will and investment. For example, ash disposal could feasibly be undertaken using powered extraction equipment (think of an industrial strength vacuum cleaner). It would still be difficult to keep inspection pits clean because even well maintained steam locomotives leak oil and water. Another labour saving device is pre-heating boilers by pumping increasingly hot water through special valves. This has been done on modern rack locomotives in Switzerland and saves labour on steam-raising. No doubt there are many other examples which I am not privy to.

One or two railroads in the USA probably exemplified the capabilities of fully modernised steam servicing more than anywhere else in the world ever got anywhere near. Loco comes on shed dropping the fire and taking coal and water enroute of course before passing through a washing area (smoothed casings helped this of course) where they were washed down by men using high pressure hoses delivering hot water. Then into the shed to be assessed for any work which was noted on cards before the reposnible gangs arrived to do whatever was needed including a 'hot gang' who did things such as the boiler and firebox (cinder cutting of tube ends was a big problem on modern US steam) and the 'grease gang' who attended to the lubrication which was almost entirely grease based. Although the engine was still hot it would then go onto a steam line to warm-up the boiler and get a bit of pressure so the steam-raiser could start on a warm loco and thus save hours in getting the engine back in steam and ready to go off shed - less than 6 hours after it came on.

 

The conditions could still be dirty, going into a hot US firebox was probably not much different from going into a hot British firebox (although the firehole door was presumably a bit bigger) and hosing down the motion etc was probably not much different from any other sort of cleaning in personal cleanliness terms. But engines on top class roads could be turned round quickly minimising hours out of traffic to the minimum. I doubt if anywhere in Europe ever got anywhere near it, even 20 years later.

[Ohmisterporter]

The Norfolk and Western Railway was particularly adept at this quick turn around of steam locos, in their case mostly the Y6b and A class Malletts. What finally made them give up on steam and become an all diesel railway was that parts suppliers for steam locomotive fittings were ceasing trading. Think of all the fittings necessary on a steam engine: injectors, various valves, brake fittings, gauges, steam gauge glasses, air pumps, feed water heaters, and so forth. In any business if your potential customer requirement falls from 20,000 per year to 5,000 or less is that still viable? Probably not. Yes the railway workshops could make some of their own equipment, but even they were closing. There comes a point where steam is simply not sustainable, even if labour and customers are readily available. By the 1960s a lot of customers appreciated the door to door service of the road transport companies. A lot of what Beeching did made economic sense.

[figworthy]

I have a recollection that back in the late 1970s there were plans put forward to build a fleet of steam locos for working coal trains around the coal fields and power stations. I assume that these would have been a development on the 9fs.

 

 

Adrian

[Sylvian Tennant]

Although I like 7F's they've never really appealled to me as a choice plus I'm more of a Crewe fan than a Derby devotee. On the other hand there was mention of an LMSR 4-8-4 and the concept of an LMSR equivalent to a V2...

 

Anyway... the way I see it (I would offer my apologies to my differing opinion but I won't, I've been told I apologies too much) I think blue may well have become apparent on some locomotives in reflection to the changing period and policy as I would think they would still be capital stock.

 

But that's just me...

 

I can also understand that it made economic sense and social sense to drift away from steam and the railway in general but I think there's alot to be answered in respect to the politcal situation of the time there was alot of missed oppotunities by BR which were taken by the roads.

 

But that's just what happened... I'd rather not know that because I've already read about that pretty much come to a mental block about how far it could have went if things in history were different. You know, severe WW3 threat (or conventional conflict), economic redistribution, social people democratic government any of these... what if the UK was a communist state...

 

I can see where I've went wrong here...

 

Next time, I'll build something and show you and see what the reaction is.

[coachmann]

what if the UK was a communist state...

Not a few folk thought it was heading that way in the later 1970s. In fact it has aways amused me that the reigning party of the mid to late 1960s chose corporate blue instead of corporate red.

[Trevellan]

I was reminded of this topic yesterday while my truck was being unloaded at a regional distribution centre for one of the major supermarkets. Several Eastern Europeans were present and it got me thinking about the articles I'd read in the early 1970s about DB and DR retaining pockets of steam traction. IIRC it was classes 44, 50 and 52 that were retained until the last, all heavy 2-10-0s (the 44s were three cylinder machines - three cylinder 9F anyone?), with a smattering of classes 23 and 38.

 

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows whether traditional working practices continued until the end of German main line steam. I don't recall reading that the last machines had mechanical stokers, so given standards of living in Germany in the 1970s, did they have the same problems with recruitment and retention?

[Sylvian Tennant]

That's a good point, it was really due to places such as pockets of europe (esp in the east), africa, philappines and countries such as Russia, China and even New Zealand (until around 1971) kept steam going. I understand living and working conditions in those places may differ for many reasons but again. I think we are imaginative people...

 

lol BR red sounds like a plan!

[21st Century Railfan]

Can't help but think of my Central British Railway here. In the case that BR stayed the way it was until the Mid-60s, I think these engines would've survived.

 

ex-LMS:

 

Black 5 - BR Black/Corporate Blue

Duchesses - Midland Maroon

Jubilees - 

 

 

(Will update later)

[Suzie]

I think I can see the possibilities of 9Fs lasting until privatisation if being converted to run on bunker fuel and perhaps getting new bigger 6-axle twin bogie tank-style tenders to give them more range given they would have more limited places to refuel. That should have reduced their maintainence requirement somewhat and made them quite low cost to run from a TCO point of view. Probably would not be worth modifying them to cab forward with multiple working equipment so they could run in pairs back to back - but who knows! Who needs a mallet when you can have an 18F Fairley.

 

If the large class of 9Fs so treated were successful perhaps there would be a small class of large steam turbine locos built? Merry go rounds might have looked a whole lot different and the Romainians might not have had to build 56s.

[Allegheny1600]

I was reminded of this topic yesterday while my truck was being unloaded at a regional distribution centre for one of the major supermarkets. Several Eastern Europeans were present and it got me thinking about the articles I'd read in the early 1970s about DB and DR retaining pockets of steam traction. IIRC it was classes 44, 50 and 52 that were retained until the last, all heavy 2-10-0s (the 44s were three cylinder machines - three cylinder 9F anyone?), with a smattering of classes 23 and 38.

 

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows whether traditional working practices continued until the end of German main line steam. I don't recall reading that the last machines had mechanical stokers, so given standards of living in Germany in the 1970s, did they have the same problems with recruitment and retention?

Sorry for the immensley late reply, I'd completely lost track of this thread.

DB steam ended in 1977 and was basically almost a carbon copy of the BR model 9 years later - filthy, worn locos lasting out their days in specific areas.

DR steam continued until 1988 for several reasons;

A planned economy meaning labour was not a problem.

Oil crisis hit hard meaning what diesels/electrics they did have, they could barely afford to run.

Foreign currency was simply too expensive to justify diesels or electrics.

What steam locos they had were efficient modern designs, mostly 'Reko' (reconstruction) types.

Again, for employment reasons, workshops were kept open so parts were available.

Don't forget that as well as being a Soviet satellite, East Germany also had to pay reparations to Soviet Russia because of WW2.

Even after 1988, you could argue that the DDR continued with steam due to the fairly regular 'Plan-Dampf' where steam operated all services in a particular area for a week or so.

Thankfully, this helped with the retention of steam workshops which is where a lot of modern steam rebuilding happens, think "Tornado" boiler!

Cheers,

John E.