Penlan Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I am currently reading/looking through the L&Y Society's 'Miscellany 2', bought for £9.95 at Wakefield Show - excellent value for pre-groupies. The view below is a part view of Great Howard Street Goods Yard, Liverpool, 1913. (Collection of P.Gibb). Now I don't know what radius these curves are and if any Loco worked over them, but they are tight, the wagons just above the van to right of centre must either be uncoupled or the buffers and couplings are using their springs There's plenty of bollards around for horse shunting and the wagon turntable. (Note to Stubby47) One curiosity is the 4/5 plank wagon centre top, which has the side door down on the side away from the loading platform - there is another one the same just above that wagon, but I realise I've cropped it off. The 1/2 planker just below the above 4/5 planker must have dropped the sides before being moved into the loading area. My scanners not the best, so viewing the original picture will reveal even more details. BUT, those curves are sharp/tight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2011 Very atmospheric photo, the yard is cluttered but fairly tidy and it looks like a sett layers nightmare! If you built a model of it no one would believe you... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 8, 2011 Could some of the "bollards" be capstans, electrically driven to enable rope-shunting? Moor Street goods station (Birmingham) used those - but it didn't have any tight curves! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Great photo! Yes the curves are tight, but I imagine an L&Y Pug would get round them OK (don't know off hand what the wheelbase of a pug is, but it's probably less than the vans in the picture? I don't think it was too unusual to have very sharp curves: locations I know of include Preston Greenbank Sidings (worked by Kitson 0-4-0STs) and Kelso (worked by Sentinel) and I'm sure there are lots of others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I would estimate the curve around the loading bank at about 2 chain radius or smaller (there's about 30 degrees of angle in three wagon lengths, say 60 feet, thus 720 feet circumference, roughly 120 feet radius). I believe that would be too tight for locos, the swinging action of a puggie would also mean a likely collision between outside cylinders and the bank. But with the choice of horses, capstans and pinch bars, that's no obstacle to working such a yard. Super picture for all the incidental detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Checking on oldmaps.uk (1908 1:2500) it looks like the photographer was in the local hospital to get that view. Plenty of capstains to see at the North end of the goods shed but it looks like these may have been used for shunting at some time... http://ribblesteam.m...motive_May_1920 I bet Dobbin was also seen in good numbers. Overall 1964 view can be found here. To my eye the curves don't seen as acute in this pic: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/l/liverpool_exchange/index14.shtml Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Could some of the "bollards" be capstans, electrically driven to enable rope-shunting? Moor Street goods station (Birmingham) used those - but it didn't have any tight curves! Keith Wouldn`t that be the era of 'hydraulics with everything'; I`m modelling a Birkenhead dock area during a similar period and the accumulator-tower powered (seemingly) everything but the yardmaster`s cat! The radii on some roadway/sett lines in Birkenhead docks were similarly, shockingly tight; even a Pug would have baulked! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Salford yard (immediately beside and below Salford Station) was also L&Y and had extremely tight curves, including a full 180 degrees around the back of one of the warehouses. It was shunted by pugs - no doubt horses also in earlier days but in the 1960s I saw only pugs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2011 And people wonder why the SWB wagon was king and not some new fangled bogie vehicle. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2011 And people wonder why the SWB wagon was king and not some new fangled bogie vehicle. Kevin Martin Have a look at some US yards with short wheelbase bogies on the vehicles! There was one posted a while ago with a circular track around a building (Shorpy image?) Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The Pepper Warehouses at East India Docks, Blackwall had an approach curve of 2ch 16yds on a 1:30 gradient around which the 0-4-0ST 'Coffee Pots' worked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Wouldn`t that be the era of 'hydraulics with everything'; I`m modelling a Birkenhead dock area during a similar period and the accumulator-tower powered (seemingly) everything but the yardmaster`s cat! Hi Debs The earliest electric capstans I can think of off the top of my head were ten installed at Avonmouth in 1904, though I'm sure there were earlier ones. The Pepper Warehouses in Blackwall had some made by Royce Ltd, but I can't remember what date they were installed. However, I agree with you that hydraulic capstans were by far the most numerous of the powered type at that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted December 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2011 Hi Debs The earliest electric capstans I can think of off the top of my head were ten installed at Avonmouth in 1904, though I'm sure there were earlier ones. The Pepper Warehouses in Blackwall had some made by Royce Ltd, but I can't remember what date they were installed. However, I agree with you that hydraulic capstans were by far the most numerous of the powered type at that time. Moor Street may have got it's electrically driven capstans in 1914 when it opened although the electric hoists to the lower level were later. Hence my query re: the photo whether there were any electric capstans present. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 some pics of the tight curves at great howard street that where worked by pugs then br class 02s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
learningtobelost Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 If only peco produced set-track in code 75! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mow Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 How unusual were the vans with the roof hatches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The capstans might not have been powered at all, but simply acting as a pivot around which a hawser might be attached to a horse or loco at one end and a wagon at the other. I have hear of other things than capstans being used like this- not always successfully. The vans with 'roof hatches' were beloved of the L&Y- presumably they allowed wagons to have bales of cotton and similar bulky items craned on board, whilst offering more weatherproofing and security than a wagon sheet. I must confess that I'd always thought they were on both sides of the wagon, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 How unusual were the vans with the roof hatches? At the turn of the century (1900) they were not unusual at all. I'm sure other companies had them but the L&Y and LNWR numbered into the thousands I would have thought. In fact there were still a few LNWR Vans with the door on one side only + the roof 'hatch', at this time. They were turned on a wagon turntable to get the door side to the platform. Fat Controller - Roof openings were on one side only for the L&Y and LNWR (that's the small print get out clause) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Same here as regards watching the LYR Pugs in Salford. When i worked at Man Vic parcels depot on the vans in 1959, we filled up with fuel in one of those large walled goods yards between the streets, and it was fascinating watching those 0-4-0ST's bumping and grinding around seemingly impossible curves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 some pics of the tight curves at great howard street that where worked by pugs then br class 02s Ah, there's the loading platform centre LH side, shown in the OP, I thought that was one of the original huts still in position, but a different roof now, it might be the one at the bottom of the OP moved along, the one with 2 pinch bars leaning near the door.. When you see pictures like these one can only wonder at the amount of Capital invested in the Structures, Railways, Rolling Stock, all the connected wharehousing etc., - A tremendous amount of labour, materials and engineering funding required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2011 some pics of the tight curves at great howard street that where worked by pugs then br class 02s Superb photos. It looks like the top photo is later & the track turning hard left has been lifted. To think some people like idyllic branch lines? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Great photos in this thread. What about tight curves in passenger stations used by passenger trains? Any photos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 At the turn of the century (1900) they were not unusual at all. I'm sure other companies had them but the L&Y and LNWR numbered into the thousands I would have thought. In fact there were still a few LNWR Vans with the door on one side only + the roof 'hatch', at this time. They were turned on a wagon turntable to get the door side to the platform. Fat Controller - Roof openings were on one side only for the L&Y and LNWR (that's the small print get out clause) That's what comes of being too young to have seen them in reality, and being confined to photos and drawings.. A similar idea exists to this day on some European railways, with vans/opens having sliding roofs that allow bulk bags or coils, for example, to be craned in and out. The photo did bring back memories of the Low Level Dock Lines in Swansea, back in the early 1960s- street running on cobbled streets with small tank engines, one of which was an ex-L&Y Pug, IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I'm sure other companies had them but the L&Y and LNWR numbered into the thousands I would have thought. In fact there were still a few LNWR Vans with the door on one side only + the roof 'hatch', at this time. IIRC, of the LNW vans with roof hatches, the earlier LNW D.32 (door on one side) vans numbered over 5000 at one point, but there were less than 2000 left by the end of the Edwardian period and a handful left at Grouping whereas over 5000 of the Dia.33 vans were passed onto the LMS. The NER was fond of roof hatches, but OTTOMH I can't think of any other constituent of the LNER which really went for the concept - the GC/CLC had some, but I don't think to any great degree. The vans with 'roof hatches' were beloved of the L&Y- presumably they allowed wagons to have bales of cotton and similar bulky items craned on board, whilst offering more weatherproofing and security than a wagon sheet. I may be wrong, but my understanding was that roof hatches fell out of favour because their waterproofing qualities could not be guaranteed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The GC/CLC roof hatched van looks to have been a Gloucester carriage and wagon design, and had a rigid sliding hatch rather than canvas. (Tatlow's wonderful LNER Wagons, vol 1 - itching for vol 4...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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