KevinWalsh Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Recently I have been pondering whether nitpicking/rivet-counting/call-it-what-you-will is unique to British outline modelling (regardless of scale/era/region) or do other countries have this occur too. This thread isn't intended to spark open warfare or pick on any group or denigrate anybody's opinions, merely me idly wondering if we Brits are the only people that indulge in this intensive scrutiny. Kev Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Recently I have been pondering whether nitpicking/rivet-counting/call-it-what-you-will is unique to British outline modelling (regardless of scale/era/region) or do other countries have this occur too. This thread isn't intended to spark open warfare or pick on any group or denigrate anybody's opinions, merely me idly wondering if we Brits are the only people that indulge in this intensive scrutiny. Kev You obviously have never looked at the Atlas HO Forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted December 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2011 Recently I have been pondering whether nitpicking/rivet-counting/call-it-what-you-will is unique to British outline modelling (regardless of scale/era/region) or do other countries have this occur too. This thread isn't intended to spark open warfare or pick on any group or denigrate anybody's opinions, merely me idly wondering if we Brits are the only people that indulge in this intensive scrutiny. Kev Hi Kev, I don't think Brits are any more picky than anyone else, whatever the topic. I think it's more a case of "if the job's worth doing, it's worth doing well", and the members of this Forum ,in particular, won't put up with mediocrity. Standards are only raised, whatever the matter, by wanting the best, so I see nothing unusual about wanting things to be made properly. My father is a keen fisherman - some of the fishing forums (with regard to the standard of tackle etc.) make RMweb look tame! Regards, Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 How about this press release from Athearn Concerning Athearn Genesis GP7 and GP9 products: some dimensional discrepancies on these products have been pointed out and we regret any inconvenience to our customers. Some small measurement errors occurred in the development process and were not realized until after the first models were shipped. In order to address these issues we have measured actual full scale units in detail and are in the process of making the necessary tooling changes to ensure that, while our measurements show the current model is already the most accurate reproduction available, the revisions will make it even more so. These changes are limited to moving the side doors and grilles up .040", and the cab side front and rear windows down .020", but since these changes are important to our customers they are most important to Athearn. Already announced road names to be produced with the changes include the Santa Fe Zebra Stripe, New York Central, Boston & Maine and NKP, as well as any future announcements. We sincerely regret any inconvenience to our customers and continually endeavor to produce the most realistic, accurate, and affordable model railroad products in the industry. Those dimensions are approx 1mm and 0.5mm. Now while I appreciate that things like this alter the look of the loco, it shows that there must have been some vociferous complaining to get Athearn to alter costly tooling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 There has been weeping and wailing and Gnashing of teeth on several US boards - including Atlas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Having modelled both US and German outline for many years now, I can assure you that modellers from these two countries certainly can make their feelings about certain models well known! As an overall percentage of modellers in their respective nations however, I would say the 'nit-pickers' are probably smaller in number than in the UK. We Brit's "moaners"? To an extent, yes! Have we had more to moan about, though? Definately - Yes! It was always an accepted "truth" in the eighties and nineties that US and Euro modellers would simply never tolerate the sort of cra9 we Brits were sold! Witness the quality of Lima locos for the European market in the late '80's compared with the equivalent UK model! This sort of thing was what drove me (& many, many others) to model foriegn prototypes! Cheers, John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Using the Brit. power of veto, the answer is - there are many fine modellers from all over the world. They want better models and are prepared to put the time and effort into doing this - why should anyone have a problem with this ?... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWalsh Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 So, basically this facet of life is one more on the long list of stuff we've invented and then exported for the rest of the world to 'enjoy'. I'm kind of pleased (in a strange way) that this isn't restricted to Brits and British outline modelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 So, basically this facet of life is one more on the long list of stuff we've invented and then exported for the rest of the world to 'enjoy'. That's not the way I read it, from the (admittedly few) responses so far. In fact John's post suggests the opposite: It was always an accepted "truth" in the eighties and nineties that US and Euro modellers would simply never tolerate the sort of cra9 we Brits were sold! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davknigh Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Judging by what I read on the Canadian Yahoo group there is no monopoly. Happily one of the most fastidious is a manufacturer, in fact there are two of them in the group both of who give as good as they get. Cheers, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm kind of pleased (in a strange way) that this isn't restricted to Brits and British outline modelling I feel the opposite way - here was something I thought we were good at but which it turns out the rest of the World is equally as good at. Damn foreigners. They beat us at football and then beat us at moaning. Bah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you think that railway modellers, british or otherwise, are nitpickers then read a few classical music concert reviews. They even argue over the age of an instrument and it's suitability to play a certain composition.. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I've been all over the World (mostly to do with music) and I can confirm that people can be a pain in the ass everywhere. Best not to add any other observations! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you think that railway modellers, british or otherwise, are nitpickers then read a few classical music concert reviews... It's even worse when we come to recordings of those concerts and the replay equipment. The only comment I have seen in railway modelling that begins to approach the 'robust criticism' found there was the famous 'blood on your hands' over an EE diesel model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Not unique to Britain or railway modelling. Go on to any of the plastic modelling sites and type any of the following into their search facility: "Hasegawa Spitfire shape" "Best 1/72 F16" "Accurate Miniatures Helldiver" (I think that was the one). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pondy Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I don't regard myself as being particularly picky, to me if it looks right then it's good enough for me. However it's probably a good thing that there are Nitpickers around otherwise we would all still be happy to run models such as the triang class 37 with the wrong bogies etc. It's a bit like supermarket fuel. I don't use supermarket fuel but I'm glad there there holding the prices down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Its obviously not confined to us then, but while many criticisims are valid there are some that annoy me People who comment on a model from a photograph. To my mind before saying a model is wrong you should measure the model and compare it to the prototype dimensions or against the prototype's original builders engineering drawings. Recently, in a magazine supplement, I saw a photograph of the preserved Deltics lined up and was interested to see how the different liveries affected the apparent shape of the nose. Those who want models accurate to the 'n'th degree and then expect to pay 'Lima' prices. Comparison to other markets, especially the USA, isn't really valid as the British market is, I would think, very small in comparison. But then my view is that if a model is basically correct and looks right it is right, I attach more importance to good running. Jeremy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 How about this press release from Athearn Those dimensions are approx 1mm and 0.5mm. Now while I appreciate that things like this alter the look of the loco, it shows that there must have been some vociferous complaining to get Athearn to alter costly tooling. Perhaps the difference between 'them and us' is that they moan and their manufacturers respond as above, we moan and our manufacturers . . . I leave it to RMwebbers to complete the sentence. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Those who want models accurate to the 'n'th degree and then expect to pay 'Lima' prices. Comparison to other markets, especially the USA, isn't really valid as the British market is, I would think, very small in comparison. Jeremy. Your first point above does seem peculiar to the British market particularly as your second point is true too. It is a small market, though I suspect higher per capita compared to the USA (i.e. the percentage of modellers to total population is probably slightly higher in the UK given the relatively large number of small specialist suppliers which never ceases to amaze me). Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I have noticed that people are more inclined to complain now than they were 15 years ago, I've worked with the public for quite a bit and find that people will now complain about the slightest little thing, rather than just if there was something more serious. Of course this wonderful thing the internet now puts us in touch with more like minded people and we can share our opinions with the entire world and not just our friends and family, also manufacturers are also more able to find out what we think of their products, for good or ill, via the same medium. The modern world is a great thing, but its sometimes a bit like giving a monkey a machine gun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 ...But then my view is that if a model is basically correct and looks right it is right, I attach more importance to good running... I take a similar view. The much better mechanisms that are now standard in RTR in combination with DCC mean that decent running quality in OO has become a non-issue. For me that's a huge step forward over the pre-1999 situation. So, does it look right? Most of it does, even if not absolutely perfect. The only thing that makes me twitchy is when a new introduction of a type replacing earlier model(s) fails to at least match the rightness of appearance of the best that went before. Couldn't bring myself to a purchase of the Heljan 47 despite its delightful running qualities, because that body was inferior on 'looking right' grounds to the ancient Triang Hornby class 47 which I owned. Likewise Hornby's current premium Brush 2 / classes 30 and 31. Excellent mechanism, beautifully finished body shell, but oh so wrong in the treatment of the cab side windows, which all previous models got right... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 i've just remembered a US version of the rivet counter, they apparently call them the 'prototype police'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 At last, something we can all agree on, "Rivet Counter" sounds far better than "Prototype Police"!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Its obviously not confined to us then, but while many criticisims are valid there are some that annoy me People who comment on a model from a photograph. To my mind before saying a model is wrong you should measure the model and compare it to the prototype dimensions or against the prototype's original builders engineering drawings. Recently, in a magazine supplement, I saw a photograph of the preserved Deltics lined up and was interested to see how the different liveries affected the apparent shape of the nose. Those who want models accurate to the 'n'th degree and then expect to pay 'Lima' prices. Comparison to other markets, especially the USA, isn't really valid as the British market is, I would think, very small in comparison. But then my view is that if a model is basically correct and looks right it is right, I attach more importance to good running. Jeremy. The thing is, sometimes a certain discrepancy can be more easily picked out from a photograph, and if manufacturers choose to post their 'works in progress' here and invite comments from those of us who are familiar with the prototype this can end in a positive outcome. Granted, it isn't always the case but things have been moving in that direction of late and as far as I can see it's a good thing. I know some folk wade in with a lot of vitriol but I guess you'll get that with any hobby. As for works drawings - it's not always wise to compare a three dimensional model with them, as quite often subtle changes took place between the drawing board and what actually happened on the shop floor.... I'm sure there are plenty of preservation groups who will confirm this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The thing is, sometimes a certain discrepancy can be more easily picked out from a photograph,... As for works drawings - it's not always wise to compare a three dimensional model with them, as quite often subtle changes took place between the drawing board and what actually happened on the shop floor.... Pretty much with Nidge here, comparisons from photos dont deserve to be dismissed out of hand and conversely, drawings dont necessarily tell the full story (ideally of course it's nice to have both). Photos can be useful if you're careful to establish enough reliable common points of reference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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