Midford South Junction thanks to Engine Wood

[lakeview770]

A brief overview, during many work visits to the UK I was re introduced to British trains and models. Over a few years of doing this I bought a few pieces of stock with a view to having a go at a small British layout. After a few postings on here I came up with a plan for what I would like to build, I spent 6 months looking in to a variation on the small station at Barnstaple, Barnstaple Victoria Road. I started to take my stock to our local club here about 75 miles away in Panama City and a few of my fellow modelers liked my British trains so someone said we should have a go at a British layout as something different to what is normally seen here in the south.

 

Initially it was going to be 6 of us as a private project but now there’s only 4 interested so were building it as a round robin group based in my garage (as it’s the only one with heat and A/C) were limited on space to a maximum size of 25 feet by 25 feet but as this is our first attempt we’ve reduced it to 16 feet by 16 feet. We’ve looked at plans and other resources and amongst us we liked mostly the ex LMS and SR plus BR stock so trying to find something to run all that was impossible until someone on here mention the S&D which settled it. Our only problem was one guy wanted to run an A4 and another a Q1 well the A4 guy dropped out so it left only the Q1 as a problem. Our initial idea was a terminus in Bournemouth with the S&D not going to B West but built a station to the East nr Pokesdown which was to join up with the LSWR line nr Christchurch but they ran out of money and it never joined the LSWR and remain a terminus, this would allow Lyle to have his Q1. This gave us another problem 2 of us wanted S&D 7F on freights so back to the drawing board, back issues of the Hornby magazine have been collected and one of them had a plan for a country station in 12 by 7 feet, ideal we had an extra 4 feet double bonus. But how do we work this plan in to the S&D well the plan “A country station” was a mainline station with a branch and a small goods yard one of us found an article and web site with the layout Engine Wood. In the article Engine Wood connects to the S&D in a south facing junction this fitted our plan to a tee. From what I can gather from books is that the original Midford station was temporary? And would have been demolished on doubling of the line. Well we demolished it and carried the double track north to at least Watery Bottom. We also moved one of the sets of turnouts so that traffic coming off the line from Engine Wood could cross and switch to the down line. We also plan to lengthen the loop on the line from Engine Wood to allow trains to be held and pass.

As this is a private project and were all starting from scratch we have very little stock at the moment so our thinking is to set the timetable during a week day when it was mostly local traffic and none of those busy summer Saturdays.

 

I am sorry I can’t publish the plan as I don’t own the copyright but I will try to upload a sketch. Its certainly proving an interesting project with all the research and opening new skills, none of us have been involved with kit building or card stock buildings and its proving very interesting.

Please post any thought or comments on what we may have missed

 

Andrew

 

 

Ps my layout has been em er shelved

[buffalo]

Sounds like an interesting project. Have you seen Chris Nevard's thread on Midford? I'm not sure about doubling the line north of Midford Viaduct, though. Surely, you will lose the operational interest of up trains needing to wait south of the viaduct for down trains to clear the single line? There would have been little point in doubling unless both Combe Down and Devonshire tunnels were also doubled. Unless the line was closed for a long time, this could only be done by boring a second single line tunnel, as was done at Winsor Hill. Of course, closing the line to Bath to widen the tunnels might have been the motivation for adding the junction with the Cam Valley line. This way, services could still run between Bristol and the Somerset & Dorset, but it would also have needed a north facing junction at Hallatrow, not to mention some quite uncharacteristic goodwill between the GWR and the S&DJR.

 

That said, I also rather like the Captain's fiction of the junction at Midford. I'm working on a model of Camerton on the Cam Valley line but have nowhere else to run my increasing collection of Somerset & Dorset stock, so may have to invoke something like this as well.

 

Nick

[lakeview770]

Hi and thanks. It's proving quite interesting so far at the moment the research is so fascinating it's unlike anything we've dome before. The wealth of information available is truly out of this world and at a reasonable price too. For example my last project based on the southern pacific I bought a book similar to the ivo peters combined volume and it cost 79.99. Going over old maps has been another interesting project as a former surveyor I wish OS map quality was readily available here in the USA

Yes I've looked at mr nevards thread and found it useful.

[lakeview770]

We've yet to look at the map In detail and finally decide where we would put the junction. Somewhere around twinhoe is looking good at the minute our plan wasn't to include the viaduct at midford due to space limitations

 

Andrew

[lakeview770]

please excuse the quality but my kids thought my scanner was a toy so I used my phone to take the picture as I said befor I altered the plan as the crosover on the main originally was more to the left, one question I have though is the set of turnouts on the down line that give access to the up line (the top most line) would they be replace with a single slip?

[RailWest]

"one question I have though is the set of turnouts on the down line that give access to the up line (the top most line) would they be replace with a single slip?"

 

Do you mean the ones marked 'LL'? It all depends if you want through running from the Down Main onto the Branch or not.

[lakeview770]

Hi and yes the idea is most of the coal traffic not destined for bath would use this route to avoid bath freeing up the midford bath section. Then the return empty workings would need to head south

[Captain Kernow]

Hi all,

 

It's very gratifying to see that someone reads my website from time to time, and even more interesting to note that someone actually takes my wild ramblings about the S&D through the Cam Valley as seriously as I do!

 

Anyway, as the builder and owner of both the website and layout of the same name, I thought I would add a bit more info to this thread. First of all, the reasoning behind my scenario can be found on the website itself - www.enginewood.co.uk

 

Here is the area plan showing the 'railways of North Somerset', assuming this fantasy had actually come to pass:

 

Personally, I had not envisaged that the S&D north of Midford South Jct would have looked that much different, so here is my take on it:

 

Certainly, there would have had to have been some unaccustomed luvvie-ness between the GWR and the S&DJR (how likely that would have been could be the subject of a lengthy discussion with anyone brave enough to buy me a brandy or two... ) and the junctions at Hallatrow would have been re-modelled to face north. I felt that with the S&D becoming the dominant company in the Cam Valley, and thus capturing all the output from both Dunkerton and Engine Wood collieries (and possibly traffic from Camerton as well), they would have been prepared to fund this remodelling work, to get the coal easily to Bristol and beyond.

 

On the website, I acknowledge that there would have had to have been some fearsome gradients and heavy engineering to get the line up from the Cam Valley to the level of the S&DJR main line at Midford South.

 

In my world, the main reason for the S&D to build this line was (i) to keep the GWR out and (ii) thus get the coal traffic. I also (and most conveniently ) assume that the coal deposits at Dunkerton were greater than they actually were and also that there was sufficient coal to warrant at colliery at Engine Wood itself (this isn't modelled on the layout, but is fed by a narrow gauge tramway, now disused by the time of the model).

 

Given the colliery traffic background, passenger traffic is essentially of a local nature, with Bristol TM to Radstock and Templecombe services. To avoid having to model lengthy summer Saturday trains (and also conveniently giving the Midford to Bath Green Park section an excuse to continue in existence), I have assumed that 'physicial infrastructure constraints somewhere between Midford South Jct and North Somerset Jct' preclude the running of long passenger trains and heavier axle weight locomotives. You can make of that what you will - I normally do!

 

In the period my layout is set (1959 - 1964), coal trains from Camerton Colliery run through to certain municipal gas works on the south coast, as well as running to Portishead Power station (as did the real coal trains from Writhlington and Kilmersdon collieries).

 

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with the project, and if I can be of any assistance, please send me a PM!

[RailWest]

"Hi and yes the idea is most of the coal traffic not destined for bath would use this route to avoid bath freeing up the midford bath section. Then the return empty workings would need to head south.."

 

In which case, a single slip is not going to achieve your objective without losing the main line's crossover capability. I would suggest that you leave the arrangements as you have drawn them.

 

But...if you are going to move the junction further south towards Twinhoe, then I would question the validity of a station in that location anyway, as there seems little scope for local passenger traffic and I doubt that branch/main interchange would be such that it could not be accommodated by changing trains at Wellow.

[Captain Kernow]

But...if you are going to move the junction further south towards Twinhoe, then I would question the validity of a station in that location anyway, as there seems little scope for local passenger traffic and I doubt that branch/main interchange would be such that it could not be accommodated by changing trains at Wellow.

Just to expand on what I said earlier, in my view the passenger service on the Cam Valley section (to/from Bristol TM) would certainly have run as far as Radstock, with some probably going through to Evercreech and/or Templecombe. I also doubt that a station would have been built between the existing Midford station and Wellow, and any 'changing of trains' is more likely to have been recommended by the railway company at the larger stations with the better facilities for passengers.

 

However, it's your project, so don't worry - if you want to build a station at Midford South Jct, then that's fine! I would suggest, however, that in view of the way the passenger services may have operated (ie. through trains to Radstock and beyond), you would not have needed a branch platform, and that basic up and down platforms would have sufficed, albeit these located to the south of the physical junction.

 

I deliberately made the line between Midford South Jct and Engine Wood single, so that I could justify holding trains at Engine Wood to cross with trains coming from the S&DJR main line - operational interest at exhibitions....!

[lakeview770]

Thanks for the input, I'm going to have a e read of mike arletts book the S&D at midford as I'm sure he states the original plan was not to have a station at midford where we now know midford station was. The plan wS to have double track all the way which is why the viaducts were built for double track ( not sure about watery bottom viaduct) as I said I'll re read it as I may have mis interpreted the text. I am assuming it is in mikes book I read it or possibly mr atthils book.

My concern with the layout of tims junction is up passengers wouldn't access the platform?

 

Andrew

[lakeview770]

Ps were trying to keep track costs down we've a dealer here in Florida who sells peco a large left code 75 $21 about £13 may not sound slot but it's a out 50% dearer than atlas but in my opinion 150% better

[Captain Kernow]

Hi Andrew,

 

In my fantasy world

 

Regarding access to the platform as mentioned in your previous posting, my plan would mean that travellers from Midford village would not be able to catch a train to Bristol TM unless they caught it from Engine Wood, which in reality is no more than 1.5 miles or so away. This would not have concerned the S&DJR company, as their main objective was to capture the coal traffic and passengers from Midford would have been incidental, especially as they already had a station there.

 

 

Back to reality

 

In terms of the station being 'temporary', I'm not so sure. I've read all the various books on the S&DJR, and as far as I can recall, the arrangements at Midford as first built in 1874 were intended to be permanent. I would argue that the provision of wooden buildings at Midford station were a result of the cramped physical location, where they were unable to fit their otherwise 'standard' stone station buildings as found at Wellow, Midsomer Norton etc. So I think that the fact that the buildings were wooden does not mean that they were intended to be temporary.

 

In other words, when the Northern Extension of the Somerset & Dorset Railway was conceived and built, there were no plans for it to be double track through Midford and onwards to Bath. Cost would undoubtedly have been a factor, as evidenced by the construction of the two tunnels as single track.

 

It was only later, when (i) the line had been taken over by the Midland Railway and L&SWR companies and (B) traffic had grown, that plans were drawn up to double parts of the line. IIRC Tucking Mill Viaduct was constructed as a single track but was widened in the late Victorian period, in anticipation of the on-going doubling of the line.

 

However, it was definitely the case that topographical/physical factors meant that doubling the line beyond Midford Viaduct would have been too expensive. Midford station was on a narrow shelf on the hillside, which would have meant an enormous amount of earth moving. Then you would have had to have doubled the two tunnels, an even greater expense.

 

It is a bit of a puzzle, therefore, why Tucking Mill viaduct was doubled, but perhaps economic factors, cost projections etc. changed during the doubling programme, which saw them do the relatively 'easy' task of doubling Tucking Mill Viaduct, but baulking at the expense of Midford station and the two tunnels.

 

One fascinating possibility was the fact that the S&DJR had thought about providing a station for Combe Down, which would have been just before the southern portal of Combe Down tunnel, sandwiched between the tunnel and Tucking Mill Viaduct. I've always thought that this would make for a great model, especially if they had grasped the nettle and doubled up to the tunnel through Midford station and then had the double-to-single connection in Combe Down station, with the single track tunnel immediately beyond. I always wanted to build a layout based on that, but somehow never found the time/space etc. In this scenario, I believe that Midford station would have remained, and been rebuilt as a double track station, I cannot find any evidence to suggest that the construction of a station at Combe Down would have resulted in the closure of Midford.

[lakeview770]

Hmmm now that's something to think about closing midford and having a station at Combe down. Well passengers not getting on at midford for Bristol but getting on at engine wood makes your junction plan work. If we build it this way we could se how it works out and possibly add a SR built concrete platform for passengers who knows we'll see how it plays out. Having a meeting tonight so let's see what happens we now have 2 or 3 scenarios to mess with

 

Andrew

[buffalo]

...I have assumed that 'physicial infrastructure constraints somewhere between Midford South Jct and North Somerset Jct' preclude the running of long passenger trains and heavier axle weight locomotives. You can make of that what you will - I normally do!...

Even with a slightly easier curve towards the north than that into the yard and station, the 1 in 47 climb up to Hallatrow would probably be sufficient...

...It is a bit of a puzzle, therefore, why Tucking Mill viaduct was doubled...

 

One fascinating possibility was the fact that the S&DJR had thought about providing a station for Combe Down, which would have been just before the southern portal of Combe Down tunnel, sandwiched between the tunnel and Tucking Mill Viaduct. I've always thought that this would make for a great model, especially if they had grasped the nettle and doubled up to the tunnel through Midford station and then had the double-to-single connection in Combe Down station, with the single track tunnel immediately beyond...

Yes, the widening of Tucking Mill viaduct is a mystery to me, too, as I can see no benefit and significant costs in extending the double line along the side of the hill below Midford Castle. The Combe Down station with the viaduct at one end and steep slopes around the other would indeed make an interesting model scenario, but I have my doubts about whether it would have worked in practice. Imagine having to restart a heavy northbound freight on that gradient (initially 1:100, then 1:50 IIRC) after waiting for a down train to clear the single line.

 

Nick

 

Edit: ps. As a passenger alighting at Combe Down, the nearly three hundred foot climb from the station to the road would have been a daunting prospect...

[lakeview770]

If you look at the original plan in the Hornby magazine the bay siding on the north was to house a local or cattle pens. I had thought about removing it but then thought about using it as a spur to hold a banker only to find it's on the wrong line ah well

 

[RailWest]

It should be remembered that, when the Bath Extension was under construction, the S&D got into such a financial state that the contractor at one stage was on the point of pulling out, so perhaps the timber form of Midford station was - in part at least- a reflection of the need to save costs.

 

In the latter half of 1890 Thomas Maidment was surveying for a doubling of the line right up to Combe Down tunnel, including the provision of at least the space for a possible halt to serve Combe Down. There seems to have been a clear intent at that time to double north of Midford, which is why Tucking Mill viaduct was doubled at the same time. The subsequent decision not to double north of Midford appears, at the time, to have been more of a 'deferrment' than an abandonment of the idea. Ironically, when the BoT inspected the new work in 1892 apparently the Inspector suggested that the line be doubled thru' Midford and a second platform provided!

 

"I've always thought that this would make for a great model, especially if they had grasped the nettle and doubled up to the tunnel through Midford station and then had the double-to-single connection in Combe Down station, with the single track tunnel immediately beyond. I always wanted to build a layout based on that, but somehow never found the time/space etc"

 

Indeed - I had the same idea many years ago and it failed to materialise for much the same reasons!

 

I would agree with the view that any station at a junction at Twinhoe would have the platforms south of the junction without a specific branch platform. I can't see the S&D going to the extra expense.

[buffalo]

...I would agree with the view that any station at a junction at Twinhoe would have the platforms south of the junction without a specific branch platform. I can't see the S&D going to the extra expense.

As you said earlier, a station near Twinhoe is most unlikely. There's scarcely a handful of houses within a mile radius of the line below Twinhoe. A junction is even less plausible given that the branch would have to tunnel under the hill to reach the Cam valley, or run parallel to the main line until it reached the south end of Midford viaduct.

 

Nick

[buffalo]

Just in case you haven't seen it, Andrew, some videos on the closure and track lifting of the S&D have been posted here in the Dapol class 22 thread. The first covers Bath to Midford and gives a very good insight into the landscape of the area between Combe Down and Midford.

 

Nick

[lakeview770]

Sorry to painful to look, I am suprised how not just the S&D but the system as a whole was destroyed, surely a system of mothballing for possible future use would have been a better choice.

[Captain Kernow]

Sorry to painful to look, I am suprised how not just the S&D but the system as a whole was destroyed, surely a system of mothballing for possible future use would have been a better choice.

Well, they did mothball it, but for all of 6 months or so. During that time the PW kept culverts clear and did some very basic maintenance. More can be found in the Tim Deacon book 'Aftermath of the Beeching Axe'...

[lakeview770]

Thank you, yet another book to order well add to the list anyway. Next thing on the list is that Mausell 3 set.

 

Andrew

[queensquare]

This is a very interesting thread, my new little layout, 'Tucking Mill', is based around this scenario. I have used the map in Mike Arlett's excellent book on Midford which outlines the various schemes that were put forward around the turn of the last century plumping for the North Somerset Light Railway. The line essentialy follows that taken by the Camerton branch (see the Captains post above). At Midford I have the NSLR ending in a small terminus adjacent to the coal canal and serving the fulling mill at Tucking Mill itself with a siding going on to a dock fed by a tramway from John Smith's limestone quarries up on Combe Down. I also have a spur running from a junction under the SDJ viaduct or thereabouts up to some exchange sidings around the site of the Midford goods sidings. I would envisage there being a small halt provided on the S&D to serve Combe Down although the NSLR spur would be freight only - any passengers who wanted to switch between the two lines would need to walk up/down the lane between the SDJ halt and the NSLR terminus at Tucking Mill. Not ideal but I can't imagine there would be many passengers and in any case, as Tim has said, the main reason to build the line would have been to capture the coal traffic. The overall feel I'm after is a Colenal Stephens style light railway.

The Light railway terminus will form a stand alone exhibition layout and made its first outing in bare boards and track form at Camrail back in the summer - it is due to go to Warley in November 2012. The exchange sidings along with Highbury and Tucking Mill viaduct and Combe Down Halt will form part of my permanent layout at home, on the opposite wall of the workshop to Bath Queensquare. There are some pictures of the Tucking Mill terminus on my Highbury thread and below are som very early snaps of Tucking Mill viaduct, Combe Down Tunnel and the exchange sidings.

Once I have fine tuned my take on the history of this fascinating corner of Somerset I will start a new thread,probably in the 2mm section.

 

Site of the exchange sidings, the left hand hole in the backscene leads to Highbury, that on the right is the SDJ mainline to Midford and the south.

A slightly earlier, broader view of the scene above

Scene looking the other way showing Tucking Mill viaduct, Combe Down tunnel and the detritus on my bench. I've not fully decided where Combe Down Halt will be but favour a site betwen the end of the viaduct and the tunnel.

[lakeview770]

Very nice I just hope our viaduct comes out as nice

[lakeview770]

After reading Clinker, Arlett's and Athills books some of the proposals for the S&D seem bizzare so I think when it comes to modeling fiction on the S&D anything is possible. From my limited knowledge its amazing by todays views and budgeting that the S&D even got built in the first place, but thankfully it did.

 

Andrew