RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 29, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2011 got this from bryan just before christmas to get a video done, what with rmweb being down and the christmas rush ive only just got round to videoing it this is the model rail ltd ed sentinel fitted with a lok-sound micro, the pictures i've already posted in the sentinal thread but i though id add it to the dcc sound section as i now have the video basically bryan fitted the loco up to see if it could be done, which it can........ in bryans words... The Sentinel Loksound Micro sound fit fit actually took me 10 minutes once I had chopped the 6 pin lead and wired it to an 8 pin one. I didnt have an 8 pin one to hand, ESU now do the micro with a 6 or 8 pin so that makes the fitting very easy. All I had to do, was to cut back the plastic sleeving where the wires are joined to the decoder, this allows the decoder length to be a push fit along the back windows, The oblong speaker fitted nicely up against the front windows set in a bit of blacktak facing downwards and the 8 pin plug inserted into the socket. I left the wires the full length to facilitate plugging the connector in , the wires can probably be hidden a little better but I was not interested in the cosmetic side only to see if the fit was possible.Sound gets out through the two open windows I have done a semi generic sound based on what I have seen and heard on youtube, Howes heard it and They are happy to put it on the website. if it generates enough interest I will record the one at Quainton next year and do a pukker version and here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b7Xzyv6j5g if there is sufficient interest shown that warrants I do a Pukka version later on I am more than happy to reblow any previously purchased generic version FOC. Obviously it goes without saying that Howes would have to charge for the return postage. so there we have it, i've not heard the sentinal for real so can't really give my honest opinion on it but im sure there are plenty of users on here who can give a valid and honest assesment and of the sounds (for fine tuning!!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I tried the Howes site but could not find any mention of the Sentinel. The Sentinel benefits from the fitting of a stay alive. Would it be possible to fit a stay alive to this loco with sound ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Is the back ground sound at 1:53 the motor of the model as it sounds almost like a steam engine with a diesel generator! The sounds are great and Id be interested in getting this done.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 31, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2011 from what i understand the sound is some sort of chain drive noise that the loco makes constantly, im sure bryan can clarify what it is when he reads the thread, it is however definatly not the noise of the motor amdaley: i dont think howes have put it on the site yet with christmas and that, if you phone them you can order one, i believe bryanis looking into the stay alive function, he certainly mentioned it to me yesterday at least, again i'll let him clarify things later today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 amdaley: i dont think howes have put it on the site yet with christmas and that, if you phone them you can order one, i believe bryanis looking into the stay alive function, he certainly mentioned it to me yesterday at least, again i'll let him clarify things later today Thanks Jim. Look forward to what he says. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed-farms Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I really like the sound of that chip I will have to get one for one of mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 31, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2011 reply from bryan..... I have not given Howes the info for them to put it on their website as yet, I was awaiting reaction to the video clip, I will email the details to them but dont expect anything to be put up till Tuesday when the world gets back to normal, The decoder required is a Micro with 8 pin connector which they will order as soon as ESU restart in January, a 6 pin micro can be used but needs rewiring to fit the 8 pin socket as I did for the test. a reason for this is I met a chap at Warley who had gutted his and fitted a 21 pin in it!!, in doing so of course  he invalidated the warranty on the loco, what I have done avoids that problem. As for the sounds used  I tried to faithfully reproduce what I could hear, it is quite a unique sound to try and capture. The whistle is pretty much spot on which is a good start. regarding the chain drive and the high speed chatter, on one clip on youtube it is going whilst the loco is stationary so I adopted the same idea, from what little info I have been given the loco has gearing which then engages the chain drive. I will only know the full story if I go and record it in 2012, a lot depends on the demand, any comments or advice from Sentinel buffs in the meantime will be welcome, as they say, "every little helps". As for the stay alive question, a feature I think this model may well need in view of its small wheelbase and only 4 pickups. I will pop in to Maplins this afternoon and get the components as recommended by ESU, I will wire the them to a decoder over the holiday and construct a test track made up of dead sections, dirty rails and various sizes of points,  will report results via Jim when done, I cant use the sentinel as it is 100 miles away so I will use an 08 as that is another loco that is often the cause of frustration,  the ESU stay alive pack looks to be  far too big for the small locos, it appears to be almost as large as the micro. Howes did order some from ESU but they have not sent any  as yet. I Hope that answers the questions. Happy new year to all.  Function key settings as at present  F1  Sound on off  F2   Long whistle  F3   Short whistle F4   Coupling up F5   Buffer up F6   Injectors F7   Safety Valve F8   Injector F9   Shunting mode ie Half speed F10  Accel decel timing override AFTER BRYAN SENT THE REPLY ABOVE HE PICKED UP THE BITS MENTIONED FOR THE STAY ALIVE.............. Well.... I got the components for the stay alive unit just to try it out. unfortunately the picture tells the story. now I realise why the ESU package is so large  Even getting it into an 08 could be a struggle. I will do some tests with a decoder on a loco with the body off to see what the results are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Big Jim, the ESU electrolytic capacitor storage method is identical to that used by Zimo for some years, so I would expect similar performance. In a tight space, you need to consult electronics catelogues from Farnell or Rapid or RS (not Maplin!) to find the optimal size/storage combinations. I think the "complete module" which ESU sell uses "gold caps", which offer considerably (100's of times) more storage of electricity than electrolytics, but need rather more care in wiring up; the Lenz Power-1 module uses a similar method. With Zimo chips, as a general rule, 200uF gets you enough electrical storage to reduce the micro-scopic "stutter" which can be seen on a four wheeled loco run very slowly on apparently clean track. 1000uF+ will remove the stutter. But neither will get a loco to ride over "dead" track or filthy rails. Upwards of 4000uF will give you a few milimeters of movement over dead track. So this is not magic "ride without electricity stuff", but it is a substantial improvement in low speed smoothness. Now, for optimal volume of capacitors, read the catelogues; you often find the same size "metal can" with different capacitance. The first thing to note is that 16v rated electrolytics have more uF per unit volume than 25v rated electrolytics - it can be two to three times as much. To use 16v rated components, you need to **know** your track voltage. If **certain** that its below 16v, then the 16v rated units are fine. If not sure, or you might lend the loco out to someone (eg. a Bachmann EZ!), then fit 25v. Your picture shows a 35v rated capacitor, which will be even less efficient at storage per volume than a 25v rated capacitor. Second, one can fit any number of smaller capacitors wired in parallel and add up their capacitance; I have a tiny L&Y 0-4-0 with three 16v 470uF capacitors in it, giving 1410uF of storage. The diode need only be rated at the max current draw of the decoder, which can be estimated as the max current draw of the motor plus a little for the sound amplifier. The resistor can be smaller by using metal film rather than carbon film components. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted December 31, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2011 im sure bryan will find that info very useful.... i was lost at "the" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Thanks Jim & Nigel for posting the information.My track voltage is 14.2 so I would be interested in how big a 16volt cap would be. I have a DCC Concepts decoder with stay alive fitted in my Sentinel & its a squeeze because the only decoder I could get was one with a wiring harness. I could shorten the wires but i just wanted to see if it would work. I know what Nigel means by a stutter which i see on occasions. i must take a look to see what voltage the cap on the Dcc concepts decoder is ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Tony, I'd guess that DCC Concepts would fit at least 25v rated components. Otherwise they would run into problems with DCC systems set above 16v at the track - the last thing a commercial supplier needs is components exploding! The DCC specification allows track voltages over 20 volts. Using Rapid as a supplier, they have 16v and 25v electrolytics, the key sizes / storage are: 6mm dia x 11mm long - 16v 220uF, 25v 100uF 8mm dia x 11mm long - 16v 470uF, 25v 220uF 10mm dia x 12mm long - ( ----------) , 25v 330uF 10mm dia x 17mm long - 16v 1000uF, 25v 470uF 10mm dia x 21mm long - (------------) , 25v 1000uF 12mm dia x 26mm long - (-----------) , 25v 2200uF 13mm dia x 21mm long - 16v 2200uF, (-----------) 16mm dia x 26mm long - 16v 4700uF, 25v 3300uF 16mm dia x 32mm long - (-----------) , 25v 4700uF The rule is "squeeze as much as you can" into the loco. I've been fitting some sound decoders for someone, and they're getting up to 2200uF crammed into various places, often by fitting several wired in parallel. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I quite like the Sentinel sounds that Bryan has so far. I'll tell him so personally as well but I'd like to be on record as saying so here too. Now, the Sentinel is of no use to me, unfortunately, but if Bryan does a Beattie Well Tank ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted January 1, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2012 another reply from bryan..... The capacitor value of 2200uf at 35vw suggested by ESU I picked up at Maplins for expediency in order to experiment with, it is 16mm x 26mm so yes it is rather large but I was going with the electrical spec suggested not the physical one, there are ways of getting the same or similar value by using smaller values in parallel as Nigel says, it is a regular practice in electronics where compactness is important, yep "Size does matter" As we are always being told!! These solutions however are not for the majority,most of whom are the RMWeb and other thread readers that don't post but who read the regular postings of those who do for information and guidance, For most, the ESU package will be the only thing they will consider buying, but even fitting  that involves soldering 3 wires on to the decoder after removing some of the plastic sleeving, if fitted, depending on the decoder, a possible warranty issue there maybe!!! so it is not that simple, especially when you see the size of the 3 solder pads on the decoder!!. I am sure that a smaller value capacitor with a minimum 25volt working voltage would help matters considerably. I will experiment  and see what is possible, Hope that clarifies what I posted via Jim earlier. Happy New Year Bryan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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