scots region Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hello all, first new topic of 2012... for me at least. I have done some modeling, I have honestly, anyway I wish to present this topic as a discussion point for John Allen's legendary Gorre and Daphetid railroad layout, sometimes imitated but sadly never yet replicated like the original( hint hint). Well since I knew nothing of the Man or the Machine I will give you instead the site where I learned about this amazing creation whilst the site was down for that week, I just screamed at the broadband but what else is new? http://www.gdlines.com/ I personally recommend checking out the gallery. Some of the images are simply stunning. http://gorre-and-daphetid.witt-family.com/ As an added bonus you can find all three of the G&D trackplans at this site. So please share you thoughts, ideas, memories - please, anyone?- on this... masterpiece, I can't summarize this! I'm Scots region, you all remember it and wish you could forget, Chao Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Unfortunately this is one of those layouts that everybody else seems to think are brilliant but which do nothing for me. The modelling is of an extremely high calibre, but the overall impression for me is somehow lacking. I have spent some time trying to work out why I feel this way and I think a big part of it is to do with what seems to me to be an exaggeration of vertical elements. It's the same with some other highly-acclaimed work such as the Franklin and South Manchester and some of the work of Malcolm Furlow. It ends up as caricature. Technically brilliant but not especially convincing. Sorry to be a bit of an iconoclast! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Holmes Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Unfortunately this is one of those layouts that everybody else seems to think are brilliant but which do nothing for me. The modelling is of an extremely high calibre, but the overall impression for me is somehow lacking. I have spent some time trying to work out why I feel this way and I think a big part of it is to do with what seems to me to be an exaggeration of vertical elements. It's the same with some other highly-acclaimed work such as the Franklin and South Manchester and some of the work of Malcolm Furlow. It ends up as caricature. Technically brilliant but not especially convincing. Sorry to be a bit of an iconoclast! I agree entirely. It does nothing for me. To be honest David K Smiths interpretation in Z scale impressed me more. By the way, watch out how you used the words "Gorre and Daphetid" they are copyrighted by the NMRA... Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If you can get hold of it there is a Kalmbach book all about it, (now out of print) but it won't be cheap - it wasn't when it was published. It was originally created to be a stage for Johns main interest - photography and that is why it has floor to ceiling scenery in the later versions - the original is actually fairly small and was incorporated into the much larger later versions, of which I think there were four or five. Two links for you - there is a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GandD, and an page of references at http://witt-family.com/gorre-and-daphetid/G&D_Files.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I was blown away when I saw it in the Railway Modeller all those years ago - over 40 now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The G & D was everything model railroading SHOULD be for me when I grew up! It has most certainly molded me to the hobbyist I am today. Those that stands cold to it really have my condoleances..... It would be a wonderful thing to see a recreation of it in HO! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 There is a DVD which I have, by Sunday River Productions in their Model Railroads Series, of films made by John Allen and found after the fire that destroyed the house and layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Unfortunately this is one of those layouts that everybody else seems to think are brilliant but which do nothing for me. The modelling is of an extremely high calibre, but the overall impression for me is somehow lacking. I have spent some time trying to work out why I feel this way and I think a big part of it is to do with what seems to me to be an exaggeration of vertical elements. It's the same with some other highly-acclaimed work such as the Franklin and South Manchester and some of the work of Malcolm Furlow. It ends up as caricature. Technically brilliant but not especially convincing. Sorry to be a bit of an iconoclast! No, no, to each there own. There probably were flaws to the final layout, what most impresses me is that in the photographs you just don't notice, we live in an age were digital manipulation wows us every day, here everything is real, even the flaws. Thats something that is extraordinarily refreshing to a die-hard cynic like me. I agree entirely. It does nothing for me. To be honest David K Smiths interpretation in Z scale impressed me more. By the way, watch out how you used the words "Gorre and Daphetid" they are copyrighted by the NMRA... Ian I saw that and did go - wow - ta for the info. The G & D was everything model railroading SHOULD be for me when I grew up! It has most certainly molded me to the hobbyist I am today. Those that stands cold to it really have my condoleances..... It would be a wonderful thing to see a recreation of it in HO! Indeed it would, a man can dream, a man can dream. There is a DVD which I have, by Sunday River Productions in their Model Railroads Series, of films made by John Allen and found after the fire that destroyed the house and layout I've seen that an will be on the lookout for it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2012 Well the book is back in print and available here http://www.camdenmin.co.uk/model-railroading-with-john-allen-p-3384.html Got this a couple of months back, it's expensive but very interesting. I like the mountain railroads and when you consider it's of an age with the Madder Valley it's very sophisticated scenically for it's time. Each to their own on this style of layout but I quite like the slight caricature nature emphasising the rocks of layouts like this and the man made canyons of the F&SM. It's not something I'd build myself but it does make a good show and reminds me of the sort of landscapes seen in fantasy films, which after all many of our models are fantasy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigZ Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Well the book is back in print and available here http://www.camdenmin...len-p-3384.html Got this a couple of months back, it's expensive but very interesting. I like the mountain railroads and when you consider it's of an age with the Madder Valley it's very sophisticated scenically for it's time. Each to their own on this style of layout but I quite like the slight caricature nature emphasising the rocks of layouts like this and the man made canyons of the F&SM. It's not something I'd build myself but it does make a good show and reminds me of the sort of landscapes seen in fantasy films, which after all many of our models are fantasy. Wow. That's CRAZY money. I had a softcover copy I sold for $20 a couple of years ago! Still have a hardcover. But I never really 'got' the G&D. Interesting as another perspective, sure. But the way I want to do it? Not so much... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSB Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I well remember the first time I saw an article about the G&D in Model Railroader over 40 years ago. I thought it was amazing and incredibly inspiring, especially compared to the general standard of British modelling at that time. Of course, time moves on and so have modelling standards but it still stands as an incredible piece of work. HSB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes, I think you have to put the layout in the context of the time it was made. I'm glad no one has made comment on John's personal habits!! Oops! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 It was the layout that inspired me to model American HO. Yes it is flawed, but it was impressive for its time. The Canandaigu & Southern was the other big influence on my formative youth too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
highpeak Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes, I think you have to put the layout in the context of the time it was made. You do, and while Allen's style has spawned some imitators in various respects, I think the hobby has moved on and in somewhat different directions. The G&D's genesis lies in the period where the world was very much contained within the bounds of a 4x8 sheet of plywood, and Allen definitely broke new ground in much of his work, leading to the floor-to-ceiling scenic tour-de-force that we remember him by today. There is a bit of a parallel with developments of models themselves, especially locomotives. In his columns in RMC, Keith Willis describes the evolution of "super-detailed" locomotives taking full advantage of castings offered by the likes of Kemtron and Cal-Scale to dress up the fairly plain offerings from such as Mantua. The results were technically amazing, and must have helped swell the profits of the casting trade, but made no sense in real terms as these creations were festooned with fittings that were illogical in their placement or combinations. The state of research and knowledge improved, and since then we've moved on to a point where we expect realistic levels of detail and authenticity in RTR products and judge these offerings largely on how well they represent their prototype. I am not sufficiently well-versed in the evolution of US modelling to offer a detailed chronology, but it seems to me that while some still choose to emulate Allen, the major developments in more recent times have been influenced more by the likes of Allen McLelland, Bill Darnaby and so on blending fiction with more realistic portrayals of specific areas and types of operation. I do like that we can have this discussion on this forum, I doubt you'd ever see it in print as the likes of Model Railroader and NMRA are too invested in the legend! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'd agree but consider "operation" to be the prime concern in the USA right now (there are always exceptions). some of the big layouts I've seen (with all the typical big peninsulars) and large marshalling yards have all been slightly disappointing to me by almost without exception also being "roundyrounds", very few seem to be "point to point". I realize that I might have just been unlucky... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2012 have all been slightly disappointing to me by almost without exception also being "roundyrounds", very few seem to be "point to point". Operation is great on a huge layout if you can find the crew to man it but I think many of them struggle to do that more than once a month so what do you do the rest of the time? If you are sat on your own in the midst of a vast layout would you want to run one train or would it be preferable to have the option to have two or three circulating while you got on with a few jobs? The recreation of a railroad in miniature is a laudable objective but realistically it will sit motionless for much of the time because it can't work without the drivers and dispatcher due to the track layout. If that's what drives you then you would have to accept it sitting mostly still, not like the full size one, while you run only one train much of the time. Compromising with a hidden return to allow at least a couple of loops would seem to be the best option to me so you can have a bit of both. Being able to sit back and just watch is part of the fun for many. It all boils down to what you want from it, personally I like to create the impression of a real railway without having to do the paperwork or concentrate too hard as it's what I do for a living. I quite enjoy operation occasionally but I also like linesiding so a layout that can do both would be my ideal. John Allen's floor to ceiling scenery may have been a bit caricatured but in person it would have filled your field of view drawing you in to the illusion much better than a 2ft wide board can unless you get very close. As such I accept what he did as one source of inspiration to my own fascination with US railroads. It was old copies of MR and Railway modeller featuring the G&D that I acquired in my childhood that led me to decide the book would be a worthwile purchase. One thing that does puzzle me though is the NMRA banning the chap who recreated in Z from using the name even as a source of inspiration! That's just going to kill off the name and legacy because it'll only be available through expensive books etc, crazy policy in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Dunno, whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Watching a train go round and round when no one else is there is not my idea of fun, frankly. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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