Ben04uk Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It has recently been stated that some LNER Thompson BG Full Brake coaches received BR Blue livery and remained in service until the mid to late 1970’s. Therefore presumably these were given a TOPS code – does anyone know what this was? Paul Bartlett’s site confirms that the 50’ LMS Passenger Full Brakes that remained in service were given a TOPS code of ‘NFV’. There is a picture of a couple at Aylesbury on parcel duty. I think I’m correct in saying the Thompson BGs were gangwayed brakes (TOPS code NA – NI) and presumably were limited to 90mph (just leaves ND). I’m also guessing these had vacuum brakes and therefore presumably the third letter in the TOPS code should end in V. On this basis, I think the most likely TOPS code for the LNER Thompson BG Full Brake would be ‘NDV’ but can anyone confirm this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Air-braked rather than vac? I'd have thought this would be the other way round.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Sorry, yes of course I meant vacuum braked - my mistake - therefore NDV perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 That would be my natural assumption, given that they survived in capital stock long enough for these to apply. I have a feeling they had moved to internal user and engineers' use by then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Six (or more) wheel? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 NA = brake van, steam heat, bogie, gangwayed, 90 mph NB = brake van, steam heat, bogie, gangwayed, 90 mph, brute NC = brake van, steam heat, bogie, gangwayed, newspaper vans, 90 mph ND = brake van, dual heat, bogie, gangwayed, 90 mph NE = brake van, dual heat, bogie, gangwayed, 100 mph NF = brake van, bogie, non-gangwayed NG = brake van, 6w, either gangwayed or non-gangwayed NH = brake van, 4w followed by V = vacuum brake, A = air brake or X = dual brakes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 I have corrected my earlier errors - I meant to say 'BG', i.e. the full bogie brake, not the four-wheel or six-wheel passenger brake vans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Just for clarity, do you mean "were they allocated a TOPS code?" or "did they carry a TOPS code?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 LNER BGs should have carried NAV as they were all steam heat only. TOPS codes on NPCCS didn't start being applied until about 1978 by which time there were no LNER BGs left in service (1978 RCTS coaching stock book). As such I would suggest that they never carried TOPS codes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Ideally, I’d like to find out if they did carry a TOPS code but failing this finding out what TOPS code they were allocated would suffice. It sounds like they were allocated the code ‘NAV’. It appears therefore that the 50’ LMS Passenger Full Brakes remained in service slightly longer than their LNER Thompson equivalents. Paul Bartlett’s photographs of the 50’ LMS Passenger Full Brakes were taken in 1981 and do carry the TOPS code so this ties in with some of the earlier comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Correct, the LMS standard brakes lasted in considerable numbers into the eighties, along with the ex-SR planked 4-wheelers being the principal survivors of the Big Four legacy. The only other NPCCS type I'd group with these as commonplace towards the end of the seventies would be the ex-GW Siphon G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It has recently been stated that some LNER Thompson BY Full Brake coaches received BR Blue livery and remained in service until the mid to late 1970’s. Therefore presumably these were given a TOPS code – does anyone know what this was? Paul Bartlett’s site confirms that the 50’ LMS Passenger Full Brakes that remained in service were given a TOPS code of ‘NFV’. There is a picture of a couple at Aylesbury on parcel duty. To add some supplementary information to the list posted by Flood and your initial posting. Not all the 50' LMS Passenger Full Brakes were coded NFV under TOPS. This referred to those which had lost their gangways. I'm not sure exactly which year in the 1970s you are interested in but thought the following, taken from RCTS Coaching Stock of British Railways 1978 (correct to end of 1977) might be of interest. There are 391 of these vans listed. The following twenty seven are listed as retaining their gangways (NAV): 30973/974/999, 31031/46/48/50/54/59/73/81, 31111/123/141/159/172/177, 31227/260/269/281, 31326/389/398, 31423, 31902/03. All ostensibly allocated to LMR. One vehicle is also still gangwayed but additionally fitted with chains to allow BRUTE Circuit use (NBV) M31098. Nos W31086/87, W31313, E31359, W31360/374/385, E31386, W31390, W31417, W31926 are again retaining their gangways but allocated to Newspaper use- TOPS code NCV. An illustration of W31386 at Newport 27/3/76 is shown in the same book. No TOPS code is visible but the van does appear to be in blue with the following inscription below the number: Newspaper Packing Van To work on Western Region only Return to Old Oak Common The guard's compartment is marked 'guard' and the gangway is clearly visible. No 'Newspapers' branding has been applied on the side of the van. This (if my sums are correct) gives a total of 39 retaining gangways and 352 having had them removed- therefore being NFV. Just to potentially confuse things further, 10 NFV are listed as retaining stoves (30975, 31001/49/108/131/150/153/157/203/205) with two of the NAV variant (31031 and 31048) also retaining a stove. The presence of a stove or otherwise was not reflected in the TOPS code. Keir Hardy's excellent site http://www.emgauge70...lmsbgpage1.html has a two page feature on the LMS BG in 1981 with many useful photos. To bring the story to the 6-wheel Thompson vans in 1978 the following are listed (as NGV) E70654/658/659/665/670/680/689/696/700 with all having lost their gangways. The accompanying illustrations (by Keith Gunner) show E70668E in August 1971 in what appears to be rail blue (based on the white Rail alphabet numerals). Whilst I have the 1978 book open looking at vans, there are still 4 of LMS 6-wheel stove fitted brakes listed as being in traffic (as per the Dapol 6-wheel BGZ) 32975/978/990, 33004. All again are classified as NGV and retain their gangways with the exception of 33004. EDIT: Whilst typing the above it seems a few more replies/clarification has been added so much of what I have put is not relevant or answering the question! I haven't deleted the post just in case it contains something of interest. The 1978 RCTS book does not list any LNER design full brakes- only the LMS variants already listed although 41 4-wheel CCT vehicles (NOV) are listed- Parkside do a kit in 4mm for this type. The only other company designs of bogie gangwayed brake in 1978 are W315 (a GWR NAV)- the other 23 survivors being NFV having lost their gangways and the already mentioned Siphon G of which 116 examples are listed- 34 are NNV (Newspaper Vans including three allocated to the Southern (S1007/11/17), the remainder being the basic NMV (gangwayed milk van). I'll shut up now!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I've been having a look around as I thought I saw a photo somewhere of an LMS BG still with gangways and hence carrying the code NAV. As is typical I now cannot find one. I have looked in the Cheona Railways in Profile No. 6 British Railway Non Passenger Rolling Stock and it shows ex LMS passenger brakes with no gangways as NFV and also an ex SR passenger brake (never fitted with gangways) as NFV. The Kier Hardy site that Natalie refers to also shows an ex LMS passenger brake with gangways and coded NCV with the words Newspaper Packing Van in small letters underneath. All to often it is thought that the NA to NE codes are for the BR builds only, this is not the case. TOPS was not interested who built a vehicle, only how variations would affect the composition of a train. If the tare weight was the same for all the variations then TOPS could allocate any of them on a particular service. Regarding the application of the codes themselves I have only seen them applied to pre-nationalisation stock after a full repaint of the vehicle. The photo below shows an ex LMS passenger brake newly repainted in July 1978 but it does not have a TOPS code on it. In fact I am struggling to find any photo of a TOPS code on a NPCCS vehicle before 1979. http://www.flickr.co...cwp/3183534892/ In addition, the Cheona book shows a BR CCT at Princes Risborough in April 1982 still showing CCT on the side whereas a photo of an ex SR CCT taken in October 1979 has the code NOV. The withdrawal dates of the Thompson BGs were (approx) as follows: E11 Sept 1976 E15 Sept 1976 E 105 Sept 1977 E 106 Nov 1976 E 145 Oct 1976 E 162 Sept 1976 The following were built in 1945/46 but I think that they were a Gresley design: E 70591 Sept 1976 E 70621 Nov 1977 (last LNER BG in revenue service) E 70635 Sept 1977 As such I very much doubt that any of them received a TOPS code (awaits photo to be proved wrong ). Just to finish - below is the link to a photo of 70513 taken in March 1977 at Bradford: http://www.flickr.co...ohn/5890750794/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I recollect seeing a matchboarded (narrow vertical planks) Thompson brake in BR Blue, sometime in the early 1970s. On the subject of the ex-LMS BGs, I noted a blue one bearing the following legend on the centre of the sides:- 'Newspaper Brake Van. For use on Western Region only. Return empty to Old Oak Common' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I can only comment from a TOPS clerk perspective, having joined Bristol TOPS in Oct 1978. By that time parcels and paper trains were already being reported to TOPS, though I don't know how soon after the original introduction of TOPS that occurred. I would say that any NPCCs vehicle in use in paper or parcels traffic in 1978 would definitely been allocated a TOPS code, even if the vehicle did not carry it. The reporting to TOPS of BGs in purely passenger formations was much more hit or miss, and did not start properly until the later introduction of the POIS system. Passenger carrying vehicles were not (I think) even recorded on the system until then cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've been having a look around as I thought I saw a photo somewhere of an LMS BG still with gangways and hence carrying the code NAV. As is typical I now cannot find one. I have looked in the Cheona Railways in Profile No. 6 British Railway Non Passenger Rolling Stock and it shows ex LMS passenger brakes with no gangways as NFV and also an ex SR passenger brake (never fitted with gangways) as NFV. The Kier Hardy site that Natalie refers to also shows an ex LMS passenger brake with gangways and coded NCV with the words Newspaper Packing Van in small letters underneath. All to often it is thought that the NA to NE codes are for the BR builds only, this is not the case. TOPS was not interested who built a vehicle, only how variations would affect the composition of a train. If the tare weight was the same for all the variations then TOPS could allocate any of them on a particular service. Regarding the application of the codes themselves I have only seen them applied to pre-nationalisation stock after a full repaint of the vehicle. The photo below shows an ex LMS passenger brake newly repainted in July 1978 but it does not have a TOPS code on it. In fact I am struggling to find any photo of a TOPS code on a NPCCS vehicle before 1979. http://www.flickr.co...cwp/3183534892/ In addition, the Cheona book shows a BR CCT at Princes Risborough in April 1982 still showing CCT on the side whereas a photo of an ex SR CCT taken in October 1979 has the code NOV. The withdrawal dates of the Thompson BGs were (approx) as follows: E11 Sept 1976 E15 Sept 1976 E 105 Sept 1977 E 106 Nov 1976 E 145 Oct 1976 E 162 Sept 1976 Were these numbered as you state or did they have an 'E' at the end as well, such as E162E? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 They'd have had an 'E' as a suffix, in the same way as the LMS 50' vans would have had an M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Suffix letters (at least on NPCCS) were dropped at some point during the 1970s- sorry that I don't have a specific date. The following are photographed in the RCTS 1978 book: E1348 5/2/75 LNER CCT E1705 26/9/71 LNER RB (Thompson) E70668E 8/8/71 LNER BZ M31024 (no date) LMS B (in blue/grey) W31386 27/3/76 LMS BG B37306 18/1/76 LMS CCT (should have been M37306...) M37926 26/4/73 LMS GUV S4605 20/4/75 SR GUV W122 5/2/77 GWR B (Collett) W330 28/3/78 GWR B (Hawksworth) W1003 27/3/76 GWR Siphon G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Natalie, isn't this because these vehicles were still allocated to their originating region/ Big Four zone, and suffixes only appeared when they were reallocated away? EDIT: W31386 seems to contradict this.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Natalie, isn't this because these vehicles were still allocated to their originating region/ Big Four zone, and suffixes only appeared when they were reallocated away? EDIT: W31386 seems to contradict this.... Not AFAIR, the suffix was dropped across the board; books such as the RCTS one naturally also dropped it in their listings regardless of the painted number on the vehicle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There were some very odd things in the numbering of NPCCS; LMS-designed CCTs with a 'W' prefix and 'M' suffix being the oddest. The vehicles were built, some eight years after nationalisation, at Swindon Works. Another oddity, shown in the relevant Cheona volume- one of the Newton-Chambers double-decked car carriers numbered E96299E. These vehicles were a BR design, which didn't appear until the late 1950s, IIRC. The dropping of suffixes seemed to have been carried out rather half-heartedly. A very dirty green PMV carries the number S1879 in 1975, whilst a blue CCT carried S2536S in 1974. E11, in blue, was photographed at Staines in spring 1975, whilst E70543E still bore its suffix in July of that year. M30999 had lost its suffix as early as September 1970. Another noticeable thing from the book is that certain pre-Nationalisation vehicles didn't seem to carry suffixes even in the 1950s. Examples include S4591, photographed in 1959, and E70680, photographed in the late 1950s. The oddest I remember seeing, though, was a vehicle with the painted number DMxxxxxxM- it was a 16t, Dia.1/108, mineral... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There is a possibility that some Works continued to apply the suffix when a vehicle was repainted and that some did not. As Natalie and Brian have shown there is no definitive answer for all of the pre-nationalisation stock. As usual it's the case of finding a photo. At least we know about E11 which is shown in Cheona Publications: Railways in Profile No. 6 British Railway Non Passenger Rolling Stock, ISBN 1 900298 06 6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Not AFAIR, the suffix was dropped across the board; books such as the RCTS one naturally also dropped it in their listings regardless of the painted number on the vehicle Absolutely correct Ian but the list I posted was of photographs in the 1978 RCTS book where the number could be clearly seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Slightly O/T, perhaps, but what do we make of these: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=12604 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Slightly O/T, perhaps, but what do we make of these: http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=12604 ? Exhibition coaches maybe? Odd livery and writing on the side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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