LNER J15 in East Kent

[DS239]

Hello Everyone,

 

I've posted this on the LNER forum,but I thought I'd try it on here as well to see if I can get a response...

 

What I was wondering was,-does anyone have any information on this loco?,-it was mentioned in an article that appeared in the KESR's 'Tenterden Terrier' magazine no.8. Here is an excerpt from the article by Douglas Bernard,now I've only typed out the relevant bits,as I couldn't do a cut'n'paste,so here goes:-

 

"In early May 1944 the writer was sent with a small detachment of Sappers from the Royal Engineers to Richborough to augment the staff of a Railway Mobile Workshop Train. ..... An ex-LNER J15 class 0-6-0 was undergoing a light repair near to the train.This was presumably a standby engine,but I never saw it working mainly because some trouble was experienced in resetting the valve gear,which was also a "low priority" job.It was rumoured that this locomotive had previously belonged to a film company and had appeared in a film made just before the war."

 

Incidentally,the other loco's working at the Richborough site were two WD Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST's.

The RE's were there at Richborough New Wharf to construct sections of the Mulberry harbours in preparation for D-Day, and to do remedial work on stored USATC wagons to make them 'fit for purpose'.

 

Now,I know that the WD did indeed have two J15 loco's,-WD212 [ex LNER 7835] and WD221 [ex LNER 7541], both acquired from London Film Productions [who bought them in 1936*] but these went to work on the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway in Sept 1942, and it seems both were then sent to Stratford for scrap on 31st Oct 1944, 212 being written off after being severely damaged in a head-on crash with a Dean Goods between Shrawardine and Ford on 26/7/43, and 221 after being laid up with mechanical problems..

 

So,could 221 have been sent from the S&M to Richborough before being scrapped..?or was it another member of the class?,or has the writer erred in his locomotive recognition?

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

* They appeared in the films: 'A day at Denham Studios',and 'A Knight without armour'.

[trisonic]

No I don't, but J15's were actually ex. GER (the last one was scrapped in 1963). You may want try the GER Society - I think they are www.gersociety.com

 

Trust the helps.

Best, Pete.

[jwealleans]

Is he sure it wasn't an LSWR 700? Not wishing to insult the author but they are superficially quite similar. Richborough was on the East Kent and I think I'm right in saying they had at least one of those.

 

Edit - not a 700, but LSWR. Take a look here. The drawing looks nothing like it, but look at the photos lower down. That's the loco I was thinking of.

[DS239]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies so far,Pete-yes, I am aware that the J15 was an ex-GER loco [GER class Y14] and I had checked the GER society website as part of a trawl through the internet to try and research this subject,I am not a GERS member,-but if you think that they're amenable to information requests by non-members then I'll send them an email.

 

Is he sure it wasn't an LSWR 700? Not wishing to insult the author but they are superficially quite similar. Richborough was on the East Kent and I think I'm right in saying they had at least one of those.

 

Edit - not a 700, but LSWR. Take a look here. The drawing looks nothing like it, but look at the photos lower down. That's the loco I was thinking of.

 

Jonathan,thanks,but it can't be an 'Ilfracombe Goods' as they'd all disappeared from the face of the earth by 1944..if you look at the bottom of the webpage in the link that you posted it shews the scrapping dates of these loco's.The EKR one had gone by the mid-30's and in any case it was in original condition,so it didn't even vaguely resemble a J15.

 

With regards to the EKR,they can be discounted in this instance as the track across their viaduct over the SR and the River Stour was removed during WW2 [exact date unknown, but 1943 seems likely] so by 1944 they probably weren't even physically connected to the rest of the track in the Port area..

Traffic for the Port was exchanged with the SR at the Weatherlees sidings,the junction being 'Minster B Junction'.

[Buckjumper]

The whereabouts of ex-GE locos requisitioned during WWII was covered by an article in the GERS Journal #77, and there was no mention of a J15 permenantly stationed at Richborough.

 

The two J15s you've noted were the only two known to have been previously sold to a film company and it can't possibly have been 212 due to the accident in '43, so 221 is the likely candidate. The loco was recorded in steam and working on the S&MR during May 1944, albeit in need of repair and in dire need of new firebars. A report five months later mentions it was still awaiting urgent repairs after which it was sent to Stratford. It is possible that it may have been at Richborough temporarily.

 

There seems to have been a lot of shuffling about of WD locos between depots, and there was an ex-GE 0-6-0T posted to Richborough and Dover in 1944 - WD (700)84 (ex-7388) where it stayed until transferred to the S&MR in March 1945.

 

Edit: these were the only two J15s in the WD during WWII, so if it was indeed a J15 in the OP it had to be No.221.

[Fat Controller]

Is it possible that the loco was originally sent to Kent as motive power for one of the various rail-based guns around the area? Two of the guns were based on the East Kent Railway, whilst others were based on the Elham Valley line. One of the latter had a requisitioned LMS diesel shunter as power; I'm not sure what was used on the others.

[The Stationmaster]

Is it possible that the loco was originally sent to Kent as motive power for one of the various rail-based guns around the area? Two of the guns were based on the East Kent Railway, whilst others were based on the Elham Valley line. One of the latter had a requisitioned LMS diesel shunter as power; I'm not sure what was used on the others.

According to one of my former Drivers - who had been a Fireman on the engine with one of the guns - one had a Dean Goods and another had 'something from another Company'. Now at one time he definitely worked on an Eastern engine with one of the guns but I don't know if that was when he was in Kent. And regrettably it's no longer possible to ask him.

[DS239]

Edit: these were the only two J15s in the WD during WWII, so if it was indeed a J15 in the OP it had to be No.221.

 

Hi Adrian,

 

Thankyou for your input,it's along the lines of what I was thinking,although if the observation of 221 on the S&MR in May is correct it must have left for Richborough pretty soon afterwards,which beggars the questions: why would the WD sent an ailing locomotive all the way from Shropshire to East Kent without organising for it to have a works visit en route..? Operations at Richborough had wound down towards the latter part of 1944,and so if the loco left there at that time why didn't it go straight to Stratford instead of going back to the S&MR?...it doesn't seem to add up,does it? I'm still puzzled...

 

If it wasn't a J15 I don't know what else it could've been,WD Dean Goods loco's were certainly active on the EKR and other local sites as motive power for the rail guns,but one would think that they were sufficiently different in appearance to not be mistaken for a J15...and I would have thought stayed with the relevant Army regiments, RA as opposed to the RE's.

 

There seems to have been a lot of shuffling about of WD locos between depots, and there was an ex-GE 0-6-0T posted to Richborough and Dover in 1944 - WD (700)84 (ex-7388) where it stayed until transferred to the S&MR in March 1945.

 

There certainly was,the S&MR particularly had a lot of locomotive 'comings and goings',I was sure I remembered seeing a reference to a GE 0-6-0T at Richborough in WW2 but I've since been unable to locate the source and was starting to think that I'd dreamt it,-so thanks for confirming that.There was also one there in WW1,-but that's another story...

 

As an aside,what livery did the WD 'Buckjumpers' carry? I asume they retained their black paintwork but with WD markings.

 

It seems that the WD loco's at Richborough were there specifically in connection with the 2 jobs mentioned in my first post,and not connected with the activities of either the Royal Artillery and their rail mounted guns [situated in the area,but not at Richborough] ,or the Navy who had a base there [HMS Robertson].

[Fat Controller]

On further digging, it would seem that all the guns on the coast between Richborough and Dover used 'borrowed' diesel shunters (SR and LMS examples), as the plume of smoke from a steam engine was considered to act as too good a sighting aid for the German guns in Calais.

Rail operations on all sites did come under the Sappers; the guns were operated by various units, including the Royal Marine Siege Regiment, the RA, and elements of the Free Polish Army.

[DS239]

Thanks Brian,

 

We are drifting a bit off-topic here,as the rail guns were not connected to the operations at Richborough..

 

On further digging, it would seem that all the guns on the coast between Richborough and Dover used 'borrowed' diesel shunters (SR and LMS examples), as the plume of smoke from a steam engine was considered to act as too good a sighting aid for the German guns in Calais.

 

Yes,the Martin Mill Military Railway used diesel traction for the reason you mentioned,and photo's shew the loco's sporting camouflage paintwork.The nearest gun position to Richborough for these guns was a firing spur laid in off the SR just SW of Walmer station.

 

The various guns moved about a bit and were operated by different units at different times.

 

Rail operations on all sites did come under the Sappers; the guns were operated by various units, including the Royal Marine Siege Regiment, the RA, and elements of the Free Polish Army.

 

Okay,thanks,I didn't word it properly,did I?

You can add the Canadian Royal Artillery to that list as well.

[jwealleans]

Have you tried the World War 2 Railway Study Group?

 

http://www.saxoncourtbooks.co.uk/ww2rsg/

[DS239]

Have you tried the World War 2 Railway Study Group?

 

http://www.saxoncour...s.co.uk/ww2rsg/

 

Thanks,

 

You've just reminded me,- I was going to ask if anyone on here is a member,or had any experience of them,-I've had that website bookmarked for a while now,but I don't recall seeing them at any shows to check them out..

 

Their bulletin samples on their website seem interesting [Their sample article no.3 has notes by D.Tipper refering to the J15 WD212 having another head-on crash on the S&MR earlier in 1942,and being repaired at Stafford Road Works...] and they would seem to be worth joining..but it'd be nice to actually clap eyes on some of their publications before doing so...

[Buckjumper]

Thankyou for your input,it's along the lines of what I was thinking,although if the observation of 221 on the S&MR in May is correct it must have left for Richborough pretty soon afterwards,which beggars the questions: why would the WD sent an ailing locomotive all the way from Shropshire to East Kent without organising for it to have a works visit en route..? Operations at Richborough had wound down towards the latter part of 1944,and so if the loco left there at that time why didn't it go straight to Stratford instead of going back to the S&MR?...it doesn't seem to add up,does it? I'm still puzzled...

 

Unless you turn it on its head; perhaps the loco was sent from the S&MR to Kent sometime prior to May 1942 - where over time it developed various faults which couldn't be dealt with there. It is known that at the War Office's request the LNER had agreed to treat the two J15s as ex-Railway Company engines and so supplied all spares to Shrewsbury (GW), the parent depot. If Kent couldn't fix something as simple as valve timings it would make sense that the loco was them transferred back to the S&MR for overhaul but obviously the issues were greater than expected and so the loco was set to work while it still could until withdrawn from there five months later. That would explain he loco being seen working on both the Kent and S&M in May 1942 even though not in the best of mechanical conditions.

 

 

As an aside,what livery did the WD 'Buckjumpers' carry? I asume they retained their black paintwork but with WD markings.

 

In typical Buckjumper fashion, a variety of styles, but like the Model T Ford any colour as long as it was black! For example no 79 had the number in the centre of the tank with a very small WD above. No. 42 when photographed in April 1942 had WD42 about a third of the way up. When 91 was given the 700 prefix it had large letter W ↑ D with a very small 70091 below the arrow. Some were still sporting their LNER numbers in mid-1942. Numbers were repeated on the buffer beams.

[PhilJ W]

I have a copy of 'Military Railways in Kent' by R M Lynne. In it it lists the locomotives that were there in WW1, however the only GE locos listed are 3 4-4-0's. No numbers or other identification being given. However there is a statement that some of the Mulberry Harbour components were assembled there in 1944. Could these locomotives have been drafted in to assist with that? This would possibly explain the scarcity of records.

[Buckjumper]

I have a copy of 'Military Railways in Kent' by R M Lynne. In it it lists the locomotives that were there in WW1, however the only GE locos listed are 3 4-4-0's.

 

The ‘Journal of the Institute of Civil Engineers’ (Paper No. 4282 by J.K. Robertson, 1919) lists three unidentified GER 4-4-0s and an 0-6-0T stationed there - probably the same tank DS239 refers to in answer #8 above. However, even this is an incomplete or incorrect record as at least two, possibly three Y65 class 2-4-2Ts were sent there too. There has been speculation in he GERS that the 4-4-0s were infact mis-identified 2-4-2Ts, but no hard facts support it.

[DS239]

I have a copy of 'Military Railways in Kent' by R M Lynne. In it it lists the locomotives that were there in WW1, however the only GE locos listed are 3 4-4-0's. No numbers or other identification being given.

 

I also have a copy,and if you look on page 32,three lines below "3 ex GER 4-4-0",it says "1 ex GER 0-6-0T"..

 

However there is a statement that some of the Mulberry Harbour components were assembled there in 1944.

 

As I mentioned in my original post...

 

Could these locomotives have been drafted in to assist with that? This would possibly explain the scarcity of records.

 

Not the WW1 loco's mentioned in the 'Military Railways in Kent' book no,they'd long gone..but the WW2 ones which are the subject of this thread,-YES!

 

 

The ‘Journal of the Institute of Civil Engineers’ (Paper No. 4282 by J.K. Robertson, 1919) lists three unidentified GER 4-4-0s and an 0-6-0T stationed there - probably the same tank DS239 refers to in answer #8 above. However, even this is an incomplete or incorrect record as at least two, possibly three Y65 class 2-4-2Ts were sent there too. There has been speculation in he GERS that the 4-4-0s were infact mis-identified 2-4-2Ts, but no hard facts support it.

 

Thanks again Adrian, the 0-6-0T was the one I was refering to,in a chat with Robert Butler he reckoned that the GER 4-4-0's were 'Claud Hamiltons'.

The loco list in the R M Lyne book mentions "2 ex LNWR 2-4-2T",but no GER ones,however it isn't comprehensive.. so who knows?

 

You wouldn't know where I could obtain a copy of the Robertson paper would you?.

It is one of the sources quoted by Robert Butler in his book 'Richborough Port' which deals mainly with the WW1 era and the plans for its development before that and, briefly, its subsequent history.

 

Also for those interested in the WW1 history of Richborough 'Railway Archive' magazine has an article on the port in issue 24.and on the loco's in issue 29,I can't comment on these however as I've yet to obtain them.

 

Okay,whilst the WW1 port history is far more complex and interesting,it's a bit off topic and could really do with a thread all of its own,so I'll steer things back to WW2 with an excerpt from the book by Robert Butler:

 

"The 1939-45 war was entirely different in character to the 1914-18 war in that the overwhelming transportation problem of the earlier war was not repeated when the struggle was renewed in 1939. Nevertheless Sandwich Haven did serve several military purposes well between 1942 and 1945,though in a minor capacity when compared with the enormous achievements of Richborough Port 1916-20.

The Military Port Repair Organisation,R.E.,was formed at Marchwood,Southampton,in 1941.Later it was given the task of preparing the 'MULBERRY' project,including the floating roadway connected with it,codenamed 'WHALE'.The latter required more room for their assembly than was available at Marchwood and a subsidiary plant for 'WHALE' assemblies was moved to Richborough.WHALE assemblies were,in fact,bridges supported on floats and each WHALE consisted of six bridges,the whole unit being 500 feet long.Production at Richborough started in February 1944 and by June,fifty units were ready for 'D Day' service on the far shore"

 

And so,back to the J15...

 

Unless you turn it on its head; perhaps the loco was sent from the S&MR to Kent sometime prior to May 1944 - where over time it developed various faults which couldn't be dealt with there. It is known that at the War Office's request the LNER had agreed to treat the two J15s as ex-Railway Company engines and so supplied all spares to Shrewsbury (GW), the parent depot. If Kent couldn't fix something as simple as valve timings it would make sense that the loco was them transferred back to the S&MR for overhaul but obviously the issues were greater than expected and so the loco was set to work while it still could until withdrawn from there five months later. That would explain he loco being seen working on both the Kent and S&M in May 1944 even though not in the best of mechanical conditions.

 

I think you may well have cracked it Adrian,your theory is certainly very plausible,now all I've got to do is track down some evidence to confirm, or alternatively, disprove it...which is all part of the fun...

 

As can be seen from the quote above, the RE's work on the Mulberry parts only started in Feb '44, it could be that the J15 was sent there then,or even,as you speculate a bit earlier,-I don't know when the USATC wagons started arriving on site,-and although in his article Douglas Bernard doesn't mention it leaving,it could well have done so near the end of May '44..

 

The book 'Locomotives at War' by P.M.Kalla-Bishop has a section about WW2 Richborough in it,particularly IIRC,about the USATC wagons,but I can't find my copy at the moment..

[EddieB]

There's a paragraph in "The East Kent Railway" (Catt, Oakwood) that states that several WD locos were on loan during 1944 in connection with a rail-mounted gun. Catt lists five Dean "goods" 0-6-0s: WD95/GWR2470, 96/2425, 177/2340, 195/2531 and 197/2540, then continues:

 

"At Richborough in 1944 it seems there were two WD 0-6-0STs and an ex-LNER 0-6-0 allocated to the RE mobile workshop. In 1945 ex-LCD T class 0-6-0T No. 1604 was on loan for a short period".

 

Now "ex-LNER 0-6-0" could be rather generic, were it not for the WD possessing only two locomotives that fit this description, namely the two J15s identified in previous posts (ref. Tourret, "Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War", Adrian's post above).

 

All in all a little vague, but some support for evidence of a J15 being present during 1944.

[EddieB]

The ‘Journal of the Institute of Civil Engineers’ (Paper No. 4282 by J.K. Robertson, 1919) lists three unidentified GER 4-4-0s and an 0-6-0T stationed there - probably the same tank DS239 refers to in answer #8 above. However, even this is an incomplete or incorrect record as at least two, possibly three Y65 class 2-4-2Ts were sent there too. There has been speculation in he GERS that the 4-4-0s were infact mis-identified 2-4-2Ts, but no hard facts support it.

 

Well we can be clear that they weren't any of the early GER 4-4-0s (Sinclair Y class reb. Adams, Johnson C8 reb. Holden, Adams "Ironclad", Worsdell G16), which were all withdrawn well before the First World War. Assuming no mis-identification (and I would find it hard to believe that an almost contemprary account would mistake a 2-4-2T for a 4-4-0), that leaves the early "Clauds" or the T19 rebuilds ("Humpty Dumpties").

 

Without any further record, I'd suggest that the T19 rebuilds are more plausible, given that their first withdrawals had already commenced (although the last survivor remained almost until the end of WW2) and were probably seen as more dispensible than the "Clauds".

[colin penfold]

I have just had a scan through the literature I own on Colonel Stephens Railways, including the S&M. There is nothing in my books to assist the question of the J15 but there is a reference to a book I don't have, that you may wish to follow up. The Shropshire and Mongomeryshire Railway by Eric S Potts (industrial railway society 1972) is quoted as containing full details of the WD locomotives used on the line. This being the case it may a) tell you which if any J15s were on the S&M and B) describe their arrival at the line and subsequent departure with reference to Kent.

 

Hope you find this useful - worth a try I would think